Star Wars Discussion Thread (Spoilers Inside)

[striker42]

I really am at a loss Zito as to how someone who is obviously as big a fan as you are of Star Wars can watch Last Jedi and enjoy it.

Luke was written as if Johnson never watched the original trilogy. Luke's defining characteristics were his desires to become a Jedi and his tendency to rush in to save others. Luke rejecting both for years and years is so against who he is that such a change that it's not realistic.

Star Wars has always been about good vs evil. It's literally the light side vs the dark. The Empire is clearly evil and the rebellion is fighting on the side of good. The other movies/shows can delve into gray areas (eg Rogue One) but the Skywalker saga is good vs evil. Johnson trying to paint the rebellion and the resistance as just as culpable as the empire or first order just doesn't fit. It was also completely unnecessary to the story.

I've said before Luke's death was terrible. He's killed off after the conflict resolves. The central character of the franchise has a completely meaningless death. It doesn't advance the story, he doesn't sacrifice himself for others, he just dies.

Rian Johnson is well known as someone who makes movies that are commentaries on movies. He did that with Last Jedi. He didn't make a Star Wars movie. It's why critics liked it. Critics see lots of movies. They get bored of movies like Star Wars. Last Jedi was a commentary and so critics lapped it up. But it wasn't a Star Wars movie and has so many problems when you look at it in that universe.

[Tapate50]

I really am at a loss Zito as to how someone who is obviously as big a fan as you are of Star Wars can watch Last Jedi and enjoy it.

Luke was written as if Johnson never watched the original trilogy. Luke's defining characteristics were his desires to become a Jedi and his tendency to rush in to save others. Luke rejecting both for years and years is so against who he is that such a change that it's not realistic.

Star Wars has always been about good vs evil. It's literally the light side vs the dark. The Empire is clearly evil and the rebellion is fighting on the side of good. The other movies/shows can delve into gray areas (eg Rogue One) but the Skywalker saga is good vs evil. Johnson trying to paint the rebellion and the resistance as just as culpable as the empire or first order just doesn't fit. It was also completely unnecessary to the story.

I've said before Luke's death was terrible. He's killed off after the conflict resolves. The central character of the franchise has a completely meaningless death. It doesn't advance the story, he doesn't sacrifice himself for others, he just dies.

Rian Johnson is well known as someone who makes movies that are commentaries on movies. He did that with Last Jedi. He didn't make a Star Wars movie. It's why critics liked it. Critics see lots of movies. They get bored of movies like Star Wars. Last Jedi was a commentary and so critics lapped it up. But it wasn't a Star Wars movie and has so many problems when you look at it in that universe.

It was awful. I can't get passed Zito liking that movie.

[zitothebrave]

I really am at a loss Zito as to how someone who is obviously as big a fan as you are of Star Wars can watch Last Jedi and enjoy it.

Luke was written as if Johnson never watched the original trilogy. Luke's defining characteristics were his desires to become a Jedi and his tendency to rush in to save others. Luke rejecting both for years and years is so against who he is that such a change that it's not realistic.

Star Wars has always been about good vs evil. It's literally the light side vs the dark. The Empire is clearly evil and the rebellion is fighting on the side of good. The other movies/shows can delve into gray areas (eg Rogue One) but the Skywalker saga is good vs evil. Johnson trying to paint the rebellion and the resistance as just as culpable as the empire or first order just doesn't fit. It was also completely unnecessary to the story.

I've said before Luke's death was terrible. He's killed off after the conflict resolves. The central character of the franchise has a completely meaningless death. It doesn't advance the story, he doesn't sacrifice himself for others, he just dies.

Rian Johnson is well known as someone who makes movies that are commentaries on movies. He did that with Last Jedi. He didn't make a Star Wars movie. It's why critics liked it. Critics see lots of movies. They get bored of movies like Star Wars. Last Jedi was a commentary and so critics lapped it up. But it wasn't a Star Wars movie and has so many problems when you look at it in that universe.

1. If you have an issue with Luke's exile, that's not Johnson's fault, that's Kasden and Abrams's fault. They wrote him into exile. Johnson dealt with the cards he had.

2. Star Wars is about good vs. evil, in a way. But there's also shades of Gray. Ignoring the Prequels and other content is silly. Sure the Empire is evil, but who's evil in the prequels? Again we know that the Dark Side is bad, but where does the Last Jedi contradict that? Johnson wasn't trying to paint the rebellion or resistance as just as culpable as the first order. He was tempting Finn. DJ was a test for Finn. And he isn't a good character. It would be like calling Han Solo before returning to the death star a good guy. He was just doing it for the money.

3. Luke's death was not terrible, it was fantastic. He died doing what you said he always did, rush in to save others. He knew that doing what he did would kill himself. And he died displaying the strongest force power we've seen on film. I don't get how he doesn't sacrifice himself for others. It's literally what he did at the film's finale, he sacrificed himself to save the resistance and his sister.

4. How can you say it's not a Star Wars film? For starters, we had 7 films before it, aside from episode 7 which was a ripoff of 4 and 5, they weren't all that similar. Especially comparing the prequels to the OT.

[striker42]

1. If you have an issue with Luke's exile, that's not Johnson's fault, that's Kasden and Abrams's fault. They wrote him into exile. Johnson dealt with the cards he had.

2. Star Wars is about good vs. evil, in a way. But there's also shades of Gray. Ignoring the Prequels and other content is silly. Sure the Empire is evil, but who's evil in the prequels? Again we know that the Dark Side is bad, but where does the Last Jedi contradict that? Johnson wasn't trying to paint the rebellion or resistance as just as culpable as the first order. He was tempting Finn. DJ was a test for Finn. And he isn't a good character. It would be like calling Han Solo before returning to the death star a good guy. He was just doing it for the money.

3. Luke's death was not terrible, it was fantastic. He died doing what you said he always did, rush in to save others. He knew that doing what he did would kill himself. And he died displaying the strongest force power we've seen on film. I don't get how he doesn't sacrifice himself for others. It's literally what he did at the film's finale, he sacrificed himself to save the resistance and his sister.

4. How can you say it's not a Star Wars film? For starters, we had 7 films before it, aside from episode 7 which was a ripoff of 4 and 5, they weren't all that similar. Especially comparing the prequels to the OT.

1. I don't have a problem with Luke being in exile. I have a problem with the story of how he got there. Luke went from a guy who rushes in to save his friends and whose singular goal in life is to become a Jedi to an attempted murderer of a kid who hadn't done anything wrong and who shuts himself off from the Force and his friends. This is a MASSIVE change in who Luke his and how he reacts to situations. Think about Luke in Return of the Jedi. He surrenders himself to the Empire on the off chance he can save his father from the Dark Side. Why wouldn't he be similarly obsessed with trying to save Kylo? It's very, very clear Kylo had an internal struggle between the Light and Dark sides just like Vader. A correct interpretation of Luke would have had him obsessed with either turning Kylo or stopping him. The fact that Luke's inability to train him to the Light Side would have made it even more important.

You can explain Luke's exile without having him cut off from the Force. Luke had a Force vision of a Chosen One that would arise and save Kylo. Luke has to keep hidden from Snoke and Kylo until the time is right so he goes to a place strong in the Light Side that would prevent other Force users from sensing him. When Rey comes Luke throws himself into helping her and later sacrifices himself to save her. That fits much better with who Luke is than the butchery that Johnson committed. You could even tie Rey in as Luke's daughter that he thought was killed but who Kylo secreted away (note, this fits with the Force vision, Johnson ignored Rey's Force vision).

2. In the prequels you have the Jedi and those supporting the Republic (Padme, Organa, etc) who are the good guys. You then have the rising evil of the Sith. The fact that the Sith hide and manipulate their way to power doesn't make them any less evil. It's end is literally a showdown between the paragon of virtue in Obiwan and the newly turned evil Anakin. The prequels are often heavy handed in this (see Anakin slaughtering children minutes after having been a Jedi). The Last Jedi makes a concerted effort to steer away from the clear cut good vs evil. Luke is torn down from his pedestal and made much more gray with his attempt to kill an innocent Kylo and then his refusal to train Rey.

As much as you try to call it a "tempting" of Finn, the war profiteering stuff is classic Rian Johnson. One of his big things is trying to subvert audience expectations. If you think the Rebellion were the good guys, he wants to turn that around and say they were part of a great evil in their waging of war. If you think Luke is a hero, he's going to tear him down and literally mock you for wanting to see Luke pull out his laser sword and go after the First Order. You think Poe is the good guy nobly fighting for the Resistance? Nope, he's an idiot, blinded by self-righteousness. This kind of stuff is classic Rian Johnson which is why he was a TERRIBLE choice for a core Star Wars movie. You can play in the shades of gray in the anthology stuff as you're not having to fit your movies in with existing material.

As for Han Solo, he's a pretty classic trope of the scoundrel with a heart of gold. Someone who was always good but who just needed to remember it. It's a pretty common trope in action movies.

3. Luke's death could have been much more impactful had he died 30 seconds sooner. Show the effects of what he was doing explicitly. Show him trying to hold it together for just another second so Rey can escape. Make it clear he's dying. Instead they just have him floating over a rock. He looks strained but not dying. The conflict ends, Rey escapes, and Luke survives...for 30 seconds. That 30 seconds makes it TERRIBLE story telling. Did his use of the Force kill him? Did he obtain peace and go willingly into the Force and so his death wasn't a sacrifice? Was it just his time?

Instead of Luke's death occurring during the fight and having him die in the culmination of the action, Luke dies just after the climax. When Luke vanished I literally said "Huh?" outloud. It was so anticlimatic and meaningless that I was legitimately confused as to whether he was dead or whether they were doing something with the Force we hadn't seen.

4. Every other core Star Wars film has clear good guys and bad guys. You know whose side you're on. Last Jedi turned that on its head. You want to cheer for Poe only to find out he's completely in the wrong and so you feel stupid for cheering for Poe. You want to cheer for Luke because of what he did in IV-VI but the Luke you get is an unlikable character. You want Finn and Rose to be successful in their plan only to discover they've been duped and a third of the action you just watched is now meaningless.

The Skywalker Saga is not about subverting audience expectations. The critics lap that stuff up as critics have to watch so many good vs bad action movies. They want something different. But when you do something different in a Star Wars movie, start messing around with established characters and/or other entities, you stray from making a Star Wars movie into making a movie that happens to use Star Wars things in it.

[striker42]

A complaint I have about all three of the sequel trilogy movies is that they make the universe smaller. Go watch Clone Wars and see the types of planets shown and the aliens featured. Then think of what you see in VII-IX. The exotic planets tend to be retreads. Jakku is essentially Tatooine. The showdown on Crait was a smaller callback to the Battle of Hoth (except the white stuff is salt instead of ice). And other locations felt like Earth instead of an exotic world.

The lack of new and interesting aliens was also a letdown. Maz Kanata was about the only significant new alien and they really didn't do enough with her (again thanks to Rian Johnson). It was a very human heavy trilogy.

[zitothebrave]

1. I don't have a problem with Luke being in exile. I have a problem with the story of how he got there. Luke went from a guy who rushes in to save his friends and whose singular goal in life is to become a Jedi to an attempted murderer of a kid who hadn't done anything wrong and who shuts himself off from the Force and his friends. This is a MASSIVE change in who Luke his and how he reacts to situations. Think about Luke in Return of the Jedi. He surrenders himself to the Empire on the off chance he can save his father from the Dark Side. Why wouldn't he be similarly obsessed with trying to save Kylo? It's very, very clear Kylo had an internal struggle between the Light and Dark sides just like Vader. A correct interpretation of Luke would have had him obsessed with either turning Kylo or stopping him. The fact that Luke's inability to train him to the Light Side would have made it even more important.

You can explain Luke's exile without having him cut off from the Force. Luke had a Force vision of a Chosen One that would arise and save Kylo. Luke has to keep hidden from Snoke and Kylo until the time is right so he goes to a place strong in the Light Side that would prevent other Force users from sensing him. When Rey comes Luke throws himself into helping her and later sacrifices himself to save her. That fits much better with who Luke is than the butchery that Johnson committed. You could even tie Rey in as Luke's daughter that he thought was killed but who Kylo secreted away (note, this fits with the Force vision, Johnson ignored Rey's Force vision).

2. In the prequels you have the Jedi and those supporting the Republic (Padme, Organa, etc) who are the good guys. You then have the rising evil of the Sith. The fact that the Sith hide and manipulate their way to power doesn't make them any less evil. It's end is literally a showdown between the paragon of virtue in Obiwan and the newly turned evil Anakin. The prequels are often heavy handed in this (see Anakin slaughtering children minutes after having been a Jedi). The Last Jedi makes a concerted effort to steer away from the clear cut good vs evil. Luke is torn down from his pedestal and made much more gray with his attempt to kill an innocent Kylo and then his refusal to train Rey.

As much as you try to call it a "tempting" of Finn, the war profiteering stuff is classic Rian Johnson. One of his big things is trying to subvert audience expectations. If you think the Rebellion were the good guys, he wants to turn that around and say they were part of a great evil in their waging of war. If you think Luke is a hero, he's going to tear him down and literally mock you for wanting to see Luke pull out his laser sword and go after the First Order. You think Poe is the good guy nobly fighting for the Resistance? Nope, he's an idiot, blinded by self-righteousness. This kind of stuff is classic Rian Johnson which is why he was a TERRIBLE choice for a core Star Wars movie. You can play in the shades of gray in the anthology stuff as you're not having to fit your movies in with existing material.

As for Han Solo, he's a pretty classic trope of the scoundrel with a heart of gold. Someone who was always good but who just needed to remember it. It's a pretty common trope in action movies.

3. Luke's death could have been much more impactful had he died 30 seconds sooner. Show the effects of what he was doing explicitly. Show him trying to hold it together for just another second so Rey can escape. Make it clear he's dying. Instead they just have him floating over a rock. He looks strained but not dying. The conflict ends, Rey escapes, and Luke survives...for 30 seconds. That 30 seconds makes it TERRIBLE story telling. Did his use of the Force kill him? Did he obtain peace and go willingly into the Force and so his death wasn't a sacrifice? Was it just his time?

Instead of Luke's death occurring during the fight and having him die in the culmination of the action, Luke dies just after the climax. When Luke vanished I literally said "Huh?" outloud. It was so anticlimatic and meaningless that I was legitimately confused as to whether he was dead or whether they were doing something with the Force we hadn't seen.

4. Every other core Star Wars film has clear good guys and bad guys. You know whose side you're on. Last Jedi turned that on its head. You want to cheer for Poe only to find out he's completely in the wrong and so you feel stupid for cheering for Poe. You want to cheer for Luke because of what he did in IV-VI but the Luke you get is an unlikable character. You want Finn and Rose to be successful in their plan only to discover they've been duped and a third of the action you just watched is now meaningless.

The Skywalker Saga is not about subverting audience expectations. The critics lap that stuff up as critics have to watch so many good vs bad action movies. They want something different. But when you do something different in a Star Wars movie, start messing around with established characters and/or other entities, you stray from making a Star Wars movie into making a movie that happens to use Star Wars things in it.

1. Like when Vader sensed Leia and threatened her. Luke was just chill about it, and definitely didn't tap into the darkside and almost kill his father before walking back from the edge.

If luke wasn't cut off from the force, he could have been sensed by Kylo and Snoke. It was smart to cut himself off from the force. Johnson didn't ignore Rey's force vision. I don't really understand what you mean there. Also force visions are notorious for being wrong. Finally, everything you posted in that paragraph is fanboy drivel. Would have required excessive exposition and spits in the face of what was set forward in Ep 7. Which is Luke went into exile because he failed Kylo, Kylo killed everyone or they joined him in the temple. What logic is all that extra stuff you added? And the timeline of Rey doesn't make sense given the film as Rey was a child in the flashback (under 5) and Kylo turned a few years before, which would have meant Kylo was 15 when he took over the temple, would it make sense for a 15 year old to challenge in any way Luke Skywalker?

2. The issue with this is what you're talkign about is not what was told. The CIS was the bad guys of Episode 2 and 3. The Trade Federation of Episode 1. Who were the heroes of Episode 1-3, the Jedi Order, who started the Clone Wars, which lead to the end of the Republic? Padme who's actions let Palpatine become the Emperor?

Johnson didn't say that at all. The fact you took it that way really means you were failing on comprehending the film. Johnson introduced a foil. Someone who's entire motivation was to make money in the middle. He was clearly a "bad" guy. He was Boba Fett, Jabba the Hutt, etc. Again, people are failing to comprehend the ability for a character to grow. Finn was tempted but didn't go about things like DJ did. It's right there in the film.

Here's what you're not getting, character development. Johnson stripped the characters from their symbols and built characters. Poe's symbol was an X-Wing. He was a cocky pilot. He had no other depth. You're confusing a cocky pilot with a noble good guy. Poe was supposed to die in TFA, that's why he was reckless in the beginning of the film. The issue is that he was a flat character. Johnson took him up a notch. COnsider if you will the idea of the OT. Luke who blew up the death star, han who did countless brave things, were they Admirals of the Rebellion? Were they leaders of the whole movement? Nope. Han became a General and Luke became a Squad Leader, but they weren't high leaders, Johnson decided to try and push him so he could become the leader of the resistance. Something he wasn't ready for after TFA. Sorry you didn't like the idea of Poe becoming a leader. He's not blinded by "self-righteousness" he's a cocky fighter pilot who thinks his skill will win the war, whcih it won't when your'e outnumbered a thousand to one. That was the lesson he had to learn. I mean they could have gone another route.

3. Luke's death was perfectly impactful. He died at peace. The exact way you'd want a Jedi to die. Seriously, taking an issue with his death shows a lack of care for Star Wars, symbology, and above all the Jedi. Luke went out like Yoda. Having given all his effort to save Rey, he spent his final moments reflecting on a setting sun, WHICH IS THE FORCE THEME'S NAME, BINARY SUNSET. What more perfect way for Luke to go out then in a Binary Sunset? There isn't one. It's Poetry, it's symmetry, it's everything Star Wars.

4. Yeah, the film was lacking good guys and bad guys. It's clear that Snoke is a mixed bag. Who has complex goals. I couldn't be rolling my eyes harder. You don't understand, that you can have a subplot that doesn't serve the main plot. It can be an important bit of character growth, and future story telling. If Finna dn Rose didn't go to Canto Bight, the entire ending scene of the movie doesn't happen. The show of the future being bright, etc. are all important as well.

Star Wars is not a monolithic structure. Lucas's films are all pretty different. ANH is the prototypical heroes tale, it's straight forward, it's what you're describing. ESB is a bit different, ESB features new enemies but also the idea that Luke perhaps isn't all that, and that the ultimate evil of ANH and honestly to that point of the saga, was Luke's father creates a different tale. And then we learn that Luke was lied to by his mentors, the "good guys" lied to him to train him into someone to kill his father. Prequels I've gone on about, it's hardly cut and dry. The main story it was telling was about the fall of Anakin.

You've talked about Wanting Filoni to run Star Wars but he's been the king of living in the Gray area of star wars. Clone Wars is a giant tale of living life in the gray

[striker42]

1. Like when Vader sensed Leia and threatened her. Luke was just chill about it, and definitely didn't tap into the darkside and almost kill his father before walking back from the edge.

If luke wasn't cut off from the force, he could have been sensed by Kylo and Snoke. It was smart to cut himself off from the force. Johnson didn't ignore Rey's force vision. I don't really understand what you mean there. Also force visions are notorious for being wrong. Finally, everything you posted in that paragraph is fanboy drivel. Would have required excessive exposition and spits in the face of what was set forward in Ep 7. Which is Luke went into exile because he failed Kylo, Kylo killed everyone or they joined him in the temple. What logic is all that extra stuff you added? And the timeline of Rey doesn't make sense given the film as Rey was a child in the flashback (under 5) and Kylo turned a few years before, which would have meant Kylo was 15 when he took over the temple, would it make sense for a 15 year old to challenge in any way Luke Skywalker?

2. The issue with this is what you're talkign about is not what was told. The CIS was the bad guys of Episode 2 and 3. The Trade Federation of Episode 1. Who were the heroes of Episode 1-3, the Jedi Order, who started the Clone Wars, which lead to the end of the Republic? Padme who's actions let Palpatine become the Emperor?

Johnson didn't say that at all. The fact you took it that way really means you were failing on comprehending the film. Johnson introduced a foil. Someone who's entire motivation was to make money in the middle. He was clearly a "bad" guy. He was Boba Fett, Jabba the Hutt, etc. Again, people are failing to comprehend the ability for a character to grow. Finn was tempted but didn't go about things like DJ did. It's right there in the film.

Here's what you're not getting, character development. Johnson stripped the characters from their symbols and built characters. Poe's symbol was an X-Wing. He was a cocky pilot. He had no other depth. You're confusing a cocky pilot with a noble good guy. Poe was supposed to die in TFA, that's why he was reckless in the beginning of the film. The issue is that he was a flat character. Johnson took him up a notch. COnsider if you will the idea of the OT. Luke who blew up the death star, han who did countless brave things, were they Admirals of the Rebellion? Were they leaders of the whole movement? Nope. Han became a General and Luke became a Squad Leader, but they weren't high leaders, Johnson decided to try and push him so he could become the leader of the resistance. Something he wasn't ready for after TFA. Sorry you didn't like the idea of Poe becoming a leader. He's not blinded by "self-righteousness" he's a cocky fighter pilot who thinks his skill will win the war, whcih it won't when your'e outnumbered a thousand to one. That was the lesson he had to learn. I mean they could have gone another route.

3. Luke's death was perfectly impactful. He died at peace. The exact way you'd want a Jedi to die. Seriously, taking an issue with his death shows a lack of care for Star Wars, symbology, and above all the Jedi. Luke went out like Yoda. Having given all his effort to save Rey, he spent his final moments reflecting on a setting sun, WHICH IS THE FORCE THEME'S NAME, BINARY SUNSET. What more perfect way for Luke to go out then in a Binary Sunset? There isn't one. It's Poetry, it's symmetry, it's everything Star Wars.

4. Yeah, the film was lacking good guys and bad guys. It's clear that Snoke is a mixed bag. Who has complex goals. I couldn't be rolling my eyes harder. You don't understand, that you can have a subplot that doesn't serve the main plot. It can be an important bit of character growth, and future story telling. If Finna dn Rose didn't go to Canto Bight, the entire ending scene of the movie doesn't happen. The show of the future being bright, etc. are all important as well.

Star Wars is not a monolithic structure. Lucas's films are all pretty different. ANH is the prototypical heroes tale, it's straight forward, it's what you're describing. ESB is a bit different, ESB features new enemies but also the idea that Luke perhaps isn't all that, and that the ultimate evil of ANH and honestly to that point of the saga, was Luke's father creates a different tale. And then we learn that Luke was lied to by his mentors, the "good guys" lied to him to train him into someone to kill his father. Prequels I've gone on about, it's hardly cut and dry. The main story it was telling was about the fall of Anakin.

You've talked about Wanting Filoni to run Star Wars but he's been the king of living in the Gray area of star wars. Clone Wars is a giant tale of living life in the gray

1. Luke's greatest temptation from the Dark Side was his from his desire to protect the people he loved. He was tempted by the Dark Side and overcame it. His attempt on Kylo's life throws that in the trash. In one flashback Rian Johnson rendered the culmination of the original trilogy meaningless. Suddenly Luke is willing to murder his young nephew. It's an utterly bizarre narrative decision.

Yoda wasn't cut off from the Force but was able to hide from the Emperor. In the expanded universe it's explained by him choosing to live near the Dark Side cave. It makes sense, an area strong in the Force could be cover for a Force user.

What parts of the Force vision did Johnson move along? The Force vision was classic JJ Abrams. Abrams loves his stories to have a mythology that fans guess at. Lost was entirely that. The Force vision gave all kinds of hints that had fans debating the larger implications. What did Johnson do with it? Throws it out. Who was flying away from Rey on Jakku? Nobodies. He took so much of what was set up in VII and just tossed it out. I personally think that was because he fundamentally disagreed with JJ Abrams on many things to do with the movies which is why Kennedy should have stepped in and ensured a cohesive narrative.

How does it spit in the face of Episode VII? He'd be pulling a Yoda. Go into exile until he's needed to train the Jedi who can accomplish what he couldn't. At the very least it could have been explained he went to a place where he could hide as his presence would have led Kylo and Snoke to the Resistance. But if that was the case Luke would have probably jumped at the opportunity to train Rey and strike back at Snoke and Kylo. Luke as the bitter old man who doesn't want to help anymore makes no sense. It's purely a choice Johnson made because he likes to tear down what audiences want.

2. The actions of the Jedi and Padme were always attempts to hold up the Republic and ensure democracy. These actions often had the opposite effect but that was because they were being manipulated by the Sith. They were trying to fight for good, just ineffectually. The CIS were just pawns of the Sith. The prequels are a tale of the fall of the Jedi and the Republic and the rise of the Sith and the Empire. However, the lines of good and evil are clear.

You're basically saying that 1/3 of the movie was there so Finn, a character they clearly were struggling to fit in, could have a minor crisis of conscience? If that's the case then it's a worse use of the movie's time than I thought. It would be like a third of Empire Strikes Back being devoted to a story that makes C3P0 question his loyalty to Luke.

The problem isn't even with developing characters. The problem is how it's done. Poe was the point of view character for the audience. When they pulled the rug out from under Poe, it was pulled out from under the audience too. This leaves the audience feeling foolish for supporting Poe. Poe's development could have been done any of a 1,000 different ways. Johnson chose a way that subverts the audience and makes the audience feel stupid. It's incongruous with the core Star Wars movie.

3. I think the fact we're discussing it shows it was a mistake. Luke is the primary character of the Skywalker Saga and they gave him a death that wasn't sufficiently explained. Did he die from the exertion of projecting himself across the galaxy? Did he gain peace and go into the force willingly? Did the Force take him? Was he actually dying at all? What we got was Luke powerfully using the force, stopping, being tired, looking at the sun, and vanishing. No sense that he'd accomplished his life's goals. No explanation that he sacrificed himself to save Rey. Nothing. There's not even a sufficient explanation as to why he's at peace at that moment. Kylo is still alive and evil.

The pieces where there for a great death scene. The binary sunset and the music were perfect. Johnson is skilled at building his shots. He's a poor storyteller though. If you're going to have Luke go into the Force at peace then they really needed a last scene with him and Rey talking. Where Luke gets a chance to say how he's at peace now and say why. Have both of them standing on the island looking into the sun after that explanation and have Luke vanish. If you're going to have him sacrifice himself, don't have him survive the battle. It was poorly executed for the death of the principle character. Han's death was so much more impactful even if the scene was more poorly shot.

4. The film has bad guys no doubt. The problem is that Rian Johnson takes glee in not giving you someone clear to cheer for. There are heroes, but even the heroes aren't particularly great.

You don't spend a third of the move to just flesh out Finn. Imagine what else could have been accomplished if they didn't have the Finn-Rose storyline.

As for the ending scene and the future being bright, it could be accomplished any number of ways. An impassioned speech by Leia broadcast on a pirate signal achieves the same end in under a minute. Probably with greater effect. Even a lot of the Last Jedi apologists don't care for Canto Bight and admit it was a waste of time.

I have no problem with Star Wars gray area. Rogue One is full of anti-heroes and it was terrific. The Mandalorian is another one with a main character that has shades of gray. But those are different than the Skywalker Saga. The prequels had many flaws (particularly with acting) but they fit the same tone. Force Awakens even fit that tone. Last Jedi, for all its great cinematography and acting, had no idea the tone it was supposed to strike.

[striker42]

At least we can all agree The Mandalorian is phenomenal. I can't wait for season 2! I can't wait to see what they do with Ahsoka.

[zitothebrave]

At least we can all agree The Mandalorian is phenomenal. I can't wait for season 2! I can't wait to see what they do with Ahsoka.

I've got money on flashbacks. Everyone is talking about Boba surviving, but I'm guessing we talk about with Bo Katan being involved and likely her being killed on the Purge. That we're more likely to see the purge of mandalore where Din Djarin escapes.

Is Ahsoka a flashback? Hard to say. The timeline for this is post her search for Ezra so it will be interesting to see how they go.

[Krgrecw]

At least we can all agree The Mandalorian is phenomenal. I can't wait for season 2! I can't wait to see what they do with Ahsoka.

Have you watching the making of The Mandalorian episodes? Good stuff. That real time rendering video wall technology they built is a game change

[zitothebrave]

What did JJ build for a storyline? Like seriously what storyline did he build. If he wanted Rey's heritage to be important drop a big hint. Or answer it. If he wanted Snoke to be the big bad, then pass that note along.

You're right that the lack of a unifying hand hurt. But I could tell you a better episode 9 plotline right now.

First, the Duel of Fates script was far superior to what we got.

But here it goes, a simple outline that's better.

2 years or so past. First order reigns over the Galaxy. Supreme Leader Ren is bored of the everyday tasks and is looking out to find more power in the force. He finds a Sith Holocron that Darth Sidious made in the Sith Temple below the surface of Coruscant. He discusses a great dark side power he sensed in the unknown regions. Me mentions that he plans to leave to find it after he crushes the rebellion and includes it's location. Kylo leaves the first order for Hux to run while he heads out to the unknown region. Hux runs the First Order cruelly. Call back to how he killed his dad to seize power. That's the bad guy setups. Good guy setups. Slightly before the film under Leia's guidance, Rey and her are training a small group of force sensitives on Ahch To (discussed in the scroll and where the film opens up) Rey has a group of kids and teenagers she trains with Leia. Leia eventually leaves as Poe needs assistance. She leaves in her ship with a few loyalists. The first tragedy of the film happens as Leia attempts to Rendezvous with Poe. The resistance comes under heavy assault from a collection of destroyers under command of Hux. Hux destroys Leia's ship before she can group up with the rest of the resistance. Poe tragically leaves knowing that they'll lose this battle. Cut to Finn and Rose. They're on Coruscant, the capital of the First Order. Sowing seeds of insurrection in the lower levels. Hux returns to Coruscant and returns to the old imperial palace. Here we get a view inside of his room. Here you find all kinds of Clone Wars and jedi artifacts he's scrounged throughout the years.

Rey and her students are attacked on Ahch To by the knights of Ren as Kylo knows the location and waited until his mother was gone. Rey defeats the knights of Ren with the aid of some of her more senior students. Realizing the threat that Kylo knows there location she heads back to meet up with Poe and Chewie. They meet on a planet could be known or not. Doesn't really matter. They discuss a dangerous plan with Rose and Finn over comms to take back Coruscant. Begin the Siege of Coruscant. Poe and Chewie have been working contacts to rally a large opposition force to the first order. Rey doesn't know what to do with her students. She meditates and Luke mentions that he built a temple on Tatooine, in the Jundland Wastes. Here she encounters a Tusken Raider trained Jedi apprentice of Luke (backstory fleshed out in comics, this Raider's family lived at the Village where Anakin killed everyone) when Luke met him later he attacked Luke but Luke defended himself and found out why the Raider was mad and diffused it. And he wound up figuring out this Tuskan was force sensitive and Luke trained him for some time while building a Temple near Kenobi's Hut. Rey leaves her students with this apprentice of Luke.

Come to the final battle, the Siege of Coruscant. This is combo space and surface battle. The battle rages for a solid 15 to 20 minutes.

Kylo enters the battle. He has been away and found the source of the dark side power. He absorbed it into himself. Now he shows up a horrifying visage. After his ship breaks the rebel blockade he lands on the Surface. Charges into Hux's room and chews him out. Destroying many of the relics in the room. He then goes out to confront the rebel ground forces. The Rebels have made heavy grounds encroaching on the palace. All of the sudden a first order tank is ripped asunder. Revealing Kylo Ren. He starts destroying rebel troops, Finn and Rose organize a retreat. Kylo rallies his troops and starts to hunt them down. As the Rebels take out the First order Navy over the planet, Hux commits suicide realizing that he will die anyway and wants to take it into his own hands. Rey arrives on the scene and meets up with Finn and Rose. She engages in battle vs. Ren. And it's a heavy battle Kylo winds up besting Rey, killing her, throwback to Han she gently touches his face. Kylo all the sudden feels a huge rush of emotion. And heals Rey before running back to the Palace. In the Palace he sees the ghost of Luke and the Ghost of Anakin. They have a conversation with him about the hollowness of the darkside. Kylo is truly struggling to balance his desire for power with what he knows to be true, he connections to his family. Leia enters and nods to him. And here we see the battle turn, Kylo rips apart the first order ground troops. Destroying them with ease. Before reaching to the sky and pulling down the remaining first order ships from orbit. He then issues a command to all first order troops that the war is over, they've lost and they should surrender to local authorities. Rey approaches him but he shuns her. He says to her something along the lines of he's come too far, he ignites his saber and before he can plunge it into himself Rey stops him. Giving him a second chance at life. He admits to Rey that he cannot return, but he will leave them to do the job to build the Galaxy as he heads to the unknown regions.

The film ends on Tatooine where Rey is training her younglings, from a nearby cliff we see some blue figures, Rey looks up and smiles at them, lookign down on her are Leia, Luke, Obi Wan, Yoda, and Anakin.

[striker42]

I've got money on flashbacks. Everyone is talking about Boba surviving, but I'm guessing we talk about with Bo Katan being involved and likely her being killed on the Purge. That we're more likely to see the purge of mandalore where Din Djarin escapes.

Is Ahsoka a flashback? Hard to say. The timeline for this is post her search for Ezra so it will be interesting to see how they go.

Rumor is that Ashoka will be more than just a passing character. Also, considering they cast Rosario Dawson for the role, I'm thinking they want Ahsoka to be a big player.

I'm not thinking the flashbacks will be big enough in the plot to justify Ahsoka. Favreau emphasizes tight episodes with things kept simple. I think that makes elaborate flashbacks unlikely.

[zitothebrave]

I mean it's probable that Ahsoka is still looking for Ezra at this point, but I would hope that's resolved. I'm assuming she's an option to take the child from Din, but the Child won't want to leave.

[striker42]

I mean it's probable that Ahsoka is still looking for Ezra at this point, but I would hope that's resolved. I'm assuming she's an option to take the child from Din, but the Child won't want to leave.

I'm assuming that too. It fits with what was said about finding his own kind.

[zitothebrave]

I'm assuming that too. It fits with what was said about finding his own kind.

Right, since we know the Yoda species only has a few known members. I believe it's now 3 officially.

[zitothebrave]

The last thing Kanan says to hera before leaving for Malachor is "I'll see you again"

[striker42]

Have you watching the making of The Mandalorian episodes? Good stuff. That real time rendering video wall technology they built is a game change

I haven't. I don't usually like to get too much into the behind the scenes stuff on shows. It's like seeing how sausage is made to me.

[zitothebrave]

I haven't. I don't usually like to get too much into the behind the scenes stuff on shows. It's like seeing how sausage is made to me.

But have you seen how sausage is made? It's truly awesome watching a buffalo chopper do it's thing.

[striker42]

I've been rewatching the prequels for the first time in a number of years. I remembered Phantom Menace being the worst but it's not. Attack of the Clones is so much worse. The acting in that movie is absolutely dreadful. I don't understand why they thought Hayden Christensen was a good idea.

[zitothebrave]

I've been rewatching the prequels for the first time in a number of years. I remembered Phantom Menace being the worst but it's not. Attack of the Clones is so much worse. The acting in that movie is absolutely dreadful. I don't understand why they thought Hayden Christensen was a good idea.

I don't blame it on the actors. Only people who looked good were people were Obi Wan and Palpatine. The latter being more for his memeness. Natalie Portman looked terrible in those films and went on to win an Oscar later.

But you're not wrong. It was such a poorly done film. It introduced some cool scenes. But if you want to look at a film that doesn't make a ton of sense, it's way up there. Almost everything that was done was not done intelligently.

The biggest mistake with the OT is that the Phantom Menace didn't really do anything for the Story. Sure it set up the earliest stages of Anakin's fall, taking him from his mother and his adoptive father who would be his master. But most of the events in the film are pointless ot the overall arc. You could skip the movie entirely and miss basically nothing. The fact that Anakin on screen met Padme doesn't matter. If you need an example, see in the Clone Wars with Duchess Satine.