Star Wars Discussion Thread (Spoilers Inside)

[zitothebrave]

The same Luke who went into the belly of the beast to save his father from the dark side abandoned his newphew...like a bitch. The real Luke would have not given up on his family like that.

The same Luke who nearly killed his father in a fit of rage, but stopped at the last second realizing what he was doing was wrong. What made Luke great wasn't that he was some kind of light side savant, it was what Yoda said "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will." that's where the Chosen One was great. The Chosen One could look at Dark Side and turn away. It didn't consume them. Luke flirted with the Dark Side, and then realized what he was doing, then stopped. Just like he did with Ben.

What would you want Luke to do? Go to the throne room of the First Order fighting through their fleet to talk down someone who thinks he wants him dead. Someone who's already been turned by Snoke. What better way would you have handled that?

Also Luke running away and abandoning his nephew as you say wasn't done in Ep 8, it was done in Ep 7. We'll come back to the end of Ending of Episode 8. Why did Luke do what he did? He robbed Ben of a chance to do things that would have pushed him to the Dark Side forever. He wasn't put in a situation where he would have to kill his Mom and the resistance. Stopping if you would his Slaughtering the Separatist Council Moment that Vader had.

[Jaw]

This is some revisionist bull****. Star Wars has always been activist. It was a bunch of men and women rebelling against the evil white male Empire. ESB introduces friendly aliens which really is hammered down in RotJ. But at it's core, star wars was about plucky idealists fighting against Space Nazis. Listen to the man himself

“It was really about the Vietnam War, and that was the period where Nixon was trying to run for a [second] term, which got me to thinking historically about how do democracies get turned into dictatorships? Because the democracies aren’t overthrown; they’re given away.”

Stop with "Dsney made star wars political" Star Wars was always political, sorry if you weren't keen eyed enough to pick out the clear imagery of the OT and Prequels.

Your post was some revisionist nonsense of its own. I never said Star Wars wasn't activist. I said that was her main focus. Cool your Disney fanboy wokeness a bit and take an honest look at it. Lucas told a story he loved, in a universe he loved, that was inspired by real events. Kennedy had an agenda she loved, and she focused on pushing it, to the detriment of the franchise.

[Krgrecw]

Your post was some revisionist nonsense of its own. I never said Star Wars wasn't activist. I said that was her main focus. Cool your Disney fanboy wokeness a bit and take an honest look at it. Lucas told a story he loved, in a universe he loved, that was inspired by real events. Kennedy had an agenda she loved, and she focused on pushing it, to the detriment of the franchise.

Wouldn’t be to sure it was Kennedy. She doesn’t have final say. She answers to the same people who gave Bruce Jenner that ESPY courage award after all.

[zitothebrave]

Your post was some revisionist nonsense of its own. I never said Star Wars wasn't activist. I said that was her main focus. Cool your Disney fanboy wokeness a bit and take an honest look at it. Lucas told a story he loved, in a universe he loved, that was inspired by real events. Kennedy had an agenda she loved, and she focused on pushing it, to the detriment of the franchise.

That's believable. Not. See what I did there?

Anyway you're allowed to be delusional. That's fine. I think the reality is that you're old. When you saw the OT you were young. Star Wars has always been about telling a story that the Story tellers want to tell. And at the core of it, it's bashing space Nazis. I would like to know what specific "activism" is in the new one? Female leader? White Men the main bad guys? Heck I'll give the new trilogy for acknowledging that people of different races and colors can be bad as we see more than just white people in the First Order and women in positions of power, though it's still dominated by White Men. So give me specific examples of how it's activist, more so than the original.

[Tapate50]

Why? Why is it dumb, because you weren't expecting it? You were expecting her to die?

No because when I watched it, I laughed at how dumb it looked on screen. I was genuinely in disbelief that it made it though the edit process.

It was a dumb scene in a franchise that has gotten away with a lot of wild stuff. Think about that.

[Tapate50]

I enjoyed the movie. I had trouble with the entire plot line getting vomited all over us verbatim in the first 5 minutes, but it was an entertaining flick.

[The Chosen One]

No because when I watched it, I laughed at how dumb it looked on screen. I was genuinely in disbelief that it made it though the edit process.

It was a dumb scene in a franchise that has gotten away with a lot of wild stuff. Think about that.

I'd still take the Carrie Poppins thing for 30 seconds over the 15-20 minutes of Canto Bight garbage and Finn/Rose adventure.

Just so I don't have to hear Zeets try to lecture me on how Lucas ruined the prequels because he made it too political, but The Last Jedi tried to expose war profiteers and show that side of the Galaxy's politics.

[zitothebrave]

No because when I watched it, I laughed at how dumb it looked on screen. I was genuinely in disbelief that it made it though the edit process.

But why did it look dumb? It's how someone would look in a vacuum, floating around. Did it play it fast and loose with physics, of course, in a film franchise that always has played it fast an loose with physics. Star Wars at its core is a space opera. Opera's often contain some weird **** in them that doesn't make sense except to character more than the plot.

Consider this synopsis of Callisto

Jupiter falls in love with the nymph Callisto, a votary of the chaste goddess Diana. On Mercury’s advice, Jupiter transforms himself into Diana, thereby achieving his purpose. Diana, meanwhile, falls in love with the shepherd Endymion and is angry when Callisto approaches her again, demanding her embraces. Juno, jealous of her husband’s affairs, calls on the Furies, who turn Callisto into a bear, a metamorphosis at once reversed by Jupiter, who now wins Callisto’s heart in truth, setting her finally among the stars.

Or this synopsis if The Valkyrie

Siegmund staggers exhausted into Hunding’s house and is entertained by the mysteriously attractive Sieglinde, Hunding’s wife. Hunding returns home and Siegmund tells him how his mother had been killed and his twin sister abducted and how he had wandered with his father, whom he calls Wolfe. After his father’s disappearance he had been unlucky and must call himself Wehwalt (Woeful). He tells of his last, unsuccessful battle, which, it seems, involved kinsmen of Hunding, for which the latter will seek revenge. Siegmund’s father had promised him a sword and this Sieglinde shows him, the weapon, embedded in an ash tree, where an old man, a visitor, had left it. The two recognise each other as brother and sister, and Siegmund draws the sword from the ash tree, calling it Nothung, sword of need. They embrace. In the second act Wotan tells Brünnhilde to ensure victory for Siegmund in the coming battle with Hunding. Fricka, wife of Wotan, favours Hunding and marriage, as she angrily makes clear, while Wotan sanctions the love of Siegmund and Sieglinde. Fricka demands the withdrawal of Wotan’s favour from Siegmund, a request that he unhappily grants. He explains to Brünnhilde his early search for power and love, Alberich’s forging of the ring, Wotan’s theft of it to pay for the building of Valhalla, and Erda’s prophecy of the end of the gods. Erda had borne him the Valkyries, warrior-maidens who have brought together heroes fallen in battle, to defend Valhalla. Wotan needs a mortal to take back the ring, which he, by oath, cannot do himself. It is said that when Alberich has a son, the reign of the gods will be over. Now he orders Brünnhilde to ensure Siegmund’s defeat, a task she accepts with sorrow. She meets Siegmund, with his sister, and tells him that he will die and go to Valhalla. At first, however, she protects him, in his battle with Hunding. The latter succeeds in killing Siegmund only after the intervention of Wotan, whose spear breaks Siegmund’s sword. Brünnhilde rides away with Sieglinde, while Wotan dismissively brings death to Hunding and sets out angrily in pursuit of the Valkyrie. In the third act the Valkyries ride back from battle, joined by Brünnhilde, with Sieglinde, who must live to bear Siegmund’s child and is now allowed away, before the arrival of Wotan. He condemns his favourite daughter to a rock, where she must lie senseless until roused by a mortal, who will be her husband. She begs that her husband may be the son of Sieglinde, who will be called Siegfried. Wotan leaves Brünnhilde, surrounded by protective fire to guard her as she sleeps her magic sleep.

Opera's tend to have some weird **** in it. Again we witnessed Luke survive a night in a planet's who's equator or -60C with only a dead tauntaun to provide warmth after the effects of hypothermia were starting to set in. Luke would have been dead long before Han even found him. That's just one clear example. There are countless others involving impossible survival that exist because it's a space Opera. The story is a vessel for the characters.

[thewupk]

The same Luke who nearly killed his father in a fit of rage, but stopped at the last second realizing what he was doing was wrong. What made Luke great wasn't that he was some kind of light side savant, it was what Yoda said "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will." that's where the Chosen One was great. The Chosen One could look at Dark Side and turn away. It didn't consume them. Luke flirted with the Dark Side, and then realized what he was doing, then stopped. Just like he did with Ben.

What would you want Luke to do? Go to the throne room of the First Order fighting through their fleet to talk down someone who thinks he wants him dead. Someone who's already been turned by Snoke. What better way would you have handled that?

Also Luke running away and abandoning his nephew as you say wasn't done in Ep 8, it was done in Ep 7. We'll come back to the end of Ending of Episode 8. Why did Luke do what he did? He robbed Ben of a chance to do things that would have pushed him to the Dark Side forever. He wasn't put in a situation where he would have to kill his Mom and the resistance. Stopping if you would his Slaughtering the Separatist Council Moment that Vader had.

Luke with a couple of years of training is different than a Like with 20+ years of it.

No, it was not shown in Ep 7 that Luke had ran away and abandoned him. We didn't know what happened at that point. And we got the worst possible outcome with Rian Johnson.

[zitothebrave]

I'd still take the Carrie Poppins thing for 30 seconds over the 15-20 minutes of Canto Bight garbage and Finn/Rose adventure.

Just so I don't have to hear Zeets try to lecture me on how Lucas ruined the prequels because he made it too political, but The Last Jedi tried to expose war profiteers and show that side of the Galaxy's politics.

My issue with the prequels was it was too politically dense. No one needs to know about trade lanes being taxed leading to a blockade by the trade federation. The movie should have glossed over those things and the shows/novels could have done way more work fleshing it out. Lucas couldn't seem to decide between political intrigue and space opera. But the real reason I hate the prequels is the terrible writing. It's memeable how bad the writing is and it's coupled with terrible direction and delivery.

"You are so beautiful" "It's only because I'm so in love" "No it's because I'm so in love with you" "So love has blinded you?"

"From the moment I met you, not a day's gone by when I haven't thought of you. And now that I'm with you... the closer it gets, the worse it gets. The thought of not being with you... I can't breathe. I am haunted by the kiss that you never should have given me. My heart is beating, hoping that kiss doesn't become a scar. You are in my very soul, tormenting me."

"Hold me, Annie. Hold me like you did by the lake on Naboo, so long ago when there was nothing but our love."

“I don’t care what universe you’re from, that’s got to hurt!”

Anakin:
Don't be afraid.

Padme:
I'm not afraid to die. I've been dying a little bit each day since you came back into my life.

Anakin:
What are you talking about?

Padme:
I love you.

Anakin:
You love me? I thought we had decided not to fall in love. That we'd be forced to live a lie and that it would destroy our lives.

Padme:
I think our lives are about to be destroyed anyway. I truly... deeply... love you and before we die I want you to know.

Padme:
You're not all-powerful, Ani.

Anakin:
Well, I should be.

Add in Lucas crafting 3 different bad guys only for them to die with minimal screen time. Compare that to the OT where Vader dominates and the new films where Kylo and Hux dominate the film (before they discard Hux in a pointless side plot in the newest film)

[zitothebrave]

Luke with a couple of years of training is different than a Like with 20+ years of it.

No, it was not shown in Ep 7 that Luke had ran away and abandoned him. We didn't know what happened at that point. And we got the worst possible outcome with Rian Johnson.

False.

Rey
Why did he leave

Han
He was training a new generation of Jedi. One boy, an apprentice turned against him, destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible...he walked away from everything.



And don't try and pretend that boy wasn't Ben.

[The Chosen One]

That's kind of Sheev's thing though. Seduce an Apprentice to do your dirty work for you and make him dispensable. That's what Maul, Dooku, Grievous all were. None of those 3 were as powerful as Vader. And there were no more active Jedi to face Vader before Luke. Sheev used Dooku as a stepping stone in Anakin's Progression to the Dark Side. Dooku could have killed him in Ep2 but didn't. Instead it let Anakin's hatred of Dooku build up for Ep3.

The tone in all 3 prequels is pretty consistent, and that includes all the dialogue being pretty consistent. If that's something that still bothers you then oh well. Lots of people can watch those movies and laugh at the dialogue and still enjoy the movies.

I mean, Phantom Menace took place during Peace Time. You're going to have political stuff being thrown in there to show political riffs as Palpatine is not yet in power to really maneuver the chess pieces on the board. Once the war actually begins, then you see why Sheev being Chancellor was a big deal in dismantling the Republic.

[thewupk]

False.

Rey
Why did he leave

Han
He was training a new generation of Jedi. One boy, an apprentice turned against him, destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible...he walked away from everything.



And don't try and pretend that boy wasn't Ben.

The way it was setup in Ep 7 and the trailers was that Luke came back to the temple and it was destroyed. Not that he confronted Ben in the middle of the night. Two different scenarios with one being much worse than the other.

[The Chosen One]

Watching TLJ fanboys like Zeets defend RoS not retconning a lot of the TLJ or just defending TLJ in general is like watching Republicans and Trump supporters spewing out Trump's Twitter Talking Points. Already know what's coming on repeat.

[zitothebrave]

The way it was setup in Ep 7 and the trailers was that Luke came back to the temple and it was destroyed. Not that he confronted Ben in the middle of the night. Two different scenarios with one being much worse than the other.

How was it set up that way. I'm assuming you're talking about the force vision. For starters that a force vision is notoriously inaccurate as has been established in star wars films and TV shows. Second we know 2 things about the past, that Snoke turned Ben, which how did they know that? Well it would make sense if Luke found out about it wouldn't it? And what would Luke, son of Anakin, do if he found out his nephew turned to the dark side already and was going to destroy everything? I mean it's not out of the realm of possibility that he would reflexively draw his lightsaber, only to stop. As he did when he was battling his father when he threatened Leia. The film dealt with the issue that adhering to the Jedi code was necessary to stay with the light. The idea that Luke shouldn't be a character but instead should be some kind of above it all near deity is moronic. Even Yoda who had hundreds of years of training was fallible. Consider Obi Wan and Yoda seemingly wanting Luke not to confront Vader as his son but as some kind of Vader hater who would kill Vader out of fear that Luke would join Vader on the dark side.

[zitothebrave]

Watching TLJ fanboys like Zeets defend RoS not retconning a lot of the TLJ or just defending TLJ in general is like watching Republicans and Trump supporters spewing out Trump's Twitter Talking Points. Already know what's coming on repeat.

Ironic since TLJ hate was spread by alt-right bots.

[The Chosen One]

How was it set up that way. I'm assuming you're talking about the force vision. For starters that a force vision is notoriously inaccurate as has been established in star wars films and TV shows. Second we know 2 things about the past, that Snoke turned Ben, which how did they know that? Well it would make sense if Luke found out about it wouldn't it? And what would Luke, son of Anakin, do if he found out his nephew turned to the dark side already and was going to destroy everything? I mean it's not out of the realm of possibility that he would reflexively draw his lightsaber, only to stop. As he did when he was battling his father when he threatened Leia. The film dealt with the issue that adhering to the Jedi code was necessary to stay with the light. The idea that Luke shouldn't be a character but instead should be some kind of above it all near deity is moronic. Even Yoda who had hundreds of years of training was fallible. Consider Obi Wan and Yoda seemingly wanting Luke not to confront Vader as his son but as some kind of Vader hater who would kill Vader out of fear that Luke would join Vader on the dark side.

But that goes back to what wupk was saying about that's the difference between Luke being a naive 20 year old versus a wise older seasoned 50 year old or however old he was.

He should have not made the same mistakes as Yoda and Obi-Wan when he came to Ben versus Anakin. He should have been smarter to know how to deal with the Darkside in Ben since he turned Vader back to the light.

Fans want to see progression after almost 40 years. Not him being just as cynical and naive as he was when he was younger. We didn't see him for almost 40 years on screen. Then he's in TFA for 3 seconds. Then when we finally see him in TLJ he's a coward.

That's not progression at all that's regression.

[zitothebrave]

But that goes back to what wupk was saying about that's the difference between Luke being a naive 20 year old versus a wise older seasoned 50 year old or however old he was.

He should have not made the same mistakes as Yoda and Obi-Wan when he came to Ben versus Anakin. He should have been smarter to know how to deal with the Darkside in Ben since he turned Vader back to the light.

Fans want to see progression after almost 40 years. Not him being just as cynical and naive as he was when he was younger. We didn't see him for almost 40 years on screen. Then he's in TFA for 3 seconds. Then when we finally see him in TLJ he's a coward.

That's not progression at all that's regression.

Again, consider what Luke says to Rey

But then I looked inside...
and it was beyond
what I ever imagined.
Snoke had already turned his heart.
He would bring destruction,
and pain,and death...
and the end of everything I love
because of what he will become.
And for the briefest moment
of pure instinct...
I thought I could stop it.


This is something a normal person would do. Luke is beyond that in that he resisted his urge. If Ben didn't wake up when he activated his lightsaber, then he probably works to turn him back if he possibly could or at least slide the other apprentices away from him. The reality is that Luke was acting as anyone would Imagine if you would Yoda had sensed in Anakin what he would actually do as Vader, do you not think Yoda would have acted any differently? We know Mace Windu would have outright killed Anakin if he knew what he would have done given the fact that Windu was probably further along the Dark Side path than he was willing to admit.

[Jaw]

Luke loses his hand to Vader after training with two Jedi masters. Mary Sue err.. Rey manages to defeat Kylo Ren a few minutes after finding out what the Force is, without training. Oh, and she's also there to show Han and Chewie everything they don't know about the ship they've been piloting for decades. Girl Power!

Then that theme is continued in TLJ with every. single. leader of the Resistance being a woman. Except for Poe, who is constantly chastised for being overly aggressive.

We had the unnecessary Cato Bight side mission with its talk of inequality and griping about arms dealers.

The entire series gives us sissy Luke, naive Han, and reckless Poe as white guys on the good side. They are rescued from their fight against The Evil (almost) All White Men by a team of minorities and Women, all wiser, stronger, braver. If only all the white men in real life would just shutup and turn over their destiny to women and minorities, am I right?

And of course the big announcement from JJ that homosexuals would have something to cheer about in the last movie, because having a lesbian kiss on screen for a fraction of a second is totes intersectional.

[zitothebrave]

Luke loses his hand to Vader after training with two Jedi masters. Mary Sue err.. Rey manages to defeat Kylo Ren a few minutes after finding out what the Force is, without training. Oh, and she's also there to show Han and Chewie everything they don't know about the ship they've been piloting for decades. Girl Power!

Then that theme is continued in TLJ with every. single. leader of the Resistance being a woman. Except for Poe, who is constantly chastised for being overly aggressive.

We had the unnecessary Cato Bight side mission with its talk of inequality and griping about arms dealers.

The entire series gives us sissy Luke, naive Han, and reckless Poe as white guys on the good side. They are rescued from their fight against The Evil (almost) All White Men by a team of minorities and Women, all wiser, stronger, braver. If only all the white men in real life would just shutup and turn over their destiny to women and minorities, am I right?

And of course the big announcement from JJ that homosexuals would have something to cheer about in the last movie, because having a lesbian kiss on screen for a fraction of a second is totes intersectional.

1. Holy **** you're really bad at following stories. Let me lay the facts out for you. Just like how Vader didn't want to kill Luke, Kylo didn't want to kill Rey. What do we see in Rey's possession at the start of the film and her use to fight off 2 toughs who go the jump on her. A quarter staff. She's obviously fought with a quarterstaff or a martial melee weapon. Given that in cannon we've seen non-force sensitives wield a lightsaber, someone recently awoken in the force likely stands a better chance than Pre Vizsla or General Grievous. Second point all throughout the Force Awakens we see the Bowcaster being incredibly powerful. We watch it not just kill but cause a storm trooper to flip back because of the concussive force from the shot to the point Han says (possible paraphrasing)"I need to get me one of those." Kylo Ren took a blaster bolt to side from Chewie after killing Han which if we look at the dialogue from TLJ "And look at you. The deed split your spirit to the bone. You were unbalanced, bested by a girl who had never held a lightsaber! YOU FAILED!" So we have an emotionally distracted/distraught Kylo Ren who's also injured and isn't trying to harm Rey. Fighting her, shocker that he screws up and lets her get the upper hand. Vader wouldn't have done that because he was cruel. Kylo wasn't. We know from basic dialogue that Rey had knowledge of the Falcon in some form. Perhaps she was the person who worked on it or she knew who did. Who knows but she was describing the work that Plott did on the ship. Not the ship. We watch in ANH after a seasoned XWing Pilot talks about the difficulty of shooting a proton torpedo into the exhaust port of the Death Star farm boy who's never flown a single space ship ever tells him that it isn't that hard he used to shoot womp rats in his T16 at home. What a mary sue!!!!

2. Why does it matter about the leader of the resistance is a woman? You think that Leia wasn't the leader of the resistance? Mon Mothma was the leader of the Rebellion and the first Chancellor of the New Republic.. It's almost like for some reason you think that a lower qualified man is more suited for the job than a woman or something.

3. Yup, a movie starting being anti-Nixon anti-Vietnam would later have a theme about War Profiteering and posh luxury. It's not like there was a crime lord villain in the OT who dealt in being on neither side and profited from a relative deal with the Empire at all.

4. Luke wasn't rescued from anyone. We witness in ANH Leia a woman is the one who gets Han and Luke out of the detention block. As I pointed out the Empire was all Evil White Men. The First ORder has evil folks of color and women too. Heck our first female villain is Capt. Phasma. Look it up. In the films all the other villains are male, almost exclusively white males, except for Grievous and Maul. I find it sad that you're not willing to believe that anyone other than a white man can be in power. Poe winds up as the leader of the resistance as Leia's protege. Leia wound up leader of the resistance primarly on the teachings of Mon Mothma, Ackbar, and many others. It's almost like people need teachers, and sometimes they can be women or minorities. I know this can be a shock to someone with such a myopic view on life that he doesn't realise that Star Wars has always been political.

5. I don't know about a big announcement, but I'm not shocked that it ruffles your feathers. I mean clearly you're cool with incestual kissing, interspecies erotica, but OMG homesexuality!!! How could it exist in nature here, it shouldn't exist in star wars!