Star Wars Discussion Thread (Spoilers Inside)

[zitothebrave]

He also subverted expectations by summarily killing off Snoke and making Rey's parents nobodies. JJ Abrams is all about mythology. Look at LOST. He started setting up the mythology of the trilogy in Force Awakens. Audiences were expecting to get more information into Snoke and Rey but Johnson subverted those expectations and gave us nothing.

The stuff with Luke was still subverting expectations. I don't think anyone really expected Luke to be a deus ex machina that defeated the First Order. It wasn't his trilogy afterall. I think they were expecting Luke to be more of the Luke we knew, the guy who would drop anything at an instant to save his friends and not the angry, old alien milk drinking hermit. More a hermit in the way Obi Wan or Yoda was. A hermit that is waiting until the time is right to intercede and help the next chosen one. So expectations of Luke were definitely subverting expectations but I don't think it damaged the trilogy as much as Johnson's blowing up things Abrams set up.

You can assign the blame where you like. Personally I lay it at the feet of Kennedy. Her inability to keep the story cohesive and swapping between directors with such incredibly different approaches was insane. I think a trilogy entirely directed by Abrams or a trilogy entirely directed by Johnson would have been far better than the Frankenstein we got. I might have disagreed with A LOT of Johnson's choices but the trilogy taken as a whole is such a mess largely because it's two competing visions.

I will ask this again. Why does Snoke's background matter? Why? Again, in a vacuum what do you know about Vader or Palpatine in the OT? You don't even know Palpatine is his name, as that was released with the Toys. If they spent the whole movie talking about SNoke coming to power wouldn't that be ****ing dumb? That's minutes of the story that could be delved into character development being focused on a big bad. What do you know of Maul, Grievous, or Dooku from the prequels? You get a little bit with Dooku that he used to be a jedi. But you don't know that he was Qui Gon's Master, or his family is very wealthy which is why he was able to easily become a head of state. That's not there. You're expecting Star Wars to literally buck the trend of it's history.

Rey's parents being no one is so amazing. It's honestly a brilliant choice. It gives poignancy to Rey. And it sets up the line Kylo says quite well.

JJ's not about mythology. He's about "mystery boxes" which are boxes he makes up with no real intention to answer. It's dumb lazy writing mechanic. If he wanted to set up a mythology then set up. Don't leave a mystery for the next person to solve.

If Luke was the drop everything to save his friends, why did he run into exile? Why didn't he regroup with his friends Han and Leia and find out a way to rescue Ben? Again, if that's the Luke you wanted, it wasn't presented that way in TFA. Don't blame Johnson for what JJ and Kasden put on paper.

I mean I agree with you on the end. No one writing an overall story was the failure. You can have some individual leader but there should have been a story board for every story on where it should have gone and some basic character arcs. But if you read the Treverrow script, he handles a lot of what Johnson gives him and then adapts really well. He doesn't just ignore all the films that came before it. JJ was like a petulant Child who shat all over basically every star wars film before it, including creating tons of unnecessary **** (Sith Wayfinders, Lightspeed Skipping, Force Healing, Clone's catching spirits, Death Star Tech in a fleet of Destroyers, could go on) Rise of Skywalker didn't have to be as bad as it was. It chose to be that bad because JJ made it that bad.

[striker42]

I will ask this again. Why does Snoke's background matter? Why? Again, in a vacuum what do you know about Vader or Palpatine in the OT? You don't even know Palpatine is his name, as that was released with the Toys. If they spent the whole movie talking about SNoke coming to power wouldn't that be ****ing dumb? That's minutes of the story that could be delved into character development being focused on a big bad. What do you know of Maul, Grievous, or Dooku from the prequels? You get a little bit with Dooku that he used to be a jedi. But you don't know that he was Qui Gon's Master, or his family is very wealthy which is why he was able to easily become a head of state. That's not there. You're expecting Star Wars to literally buck the trend of it's history.

Rey's parents being no one is so amazing. It's honestly a brilliant choice. It gives poignancy to Rey. And it sets up the line Kylo says quite well.

JJ's not about mythology. He's about "mystery boxes" which are boxes he makes up with no real intention to answer. It's dumb lazy writing mechanic. If he wanted to set up a mythology then set up. Don't leave a mystery for the next person to solve.

If Luke was the drop everything to save his friends, why did he run into exile? Why didn't he regroup with his friends Han and Leia and find out a way to rescue Ben? Again, if that's the Luke you wanted, it wasn't presented that way in TFA. Don't blame Johnson for what JJ and Kasden put on paper.

I mean I agree with you on the end. No one writing an overall story was the failure. You can have some individual leader but there should have been a story board for every story on where it should have gone and some basic character arcs. But if you read the Treverrow script, he handles a lot of what Johnson gives him and then adapts really well. He doesn't just ignore all the films that came before it. JJ was like a petulant Child who shat all over basically every star wars film before it, including creating tons of unnecessary **** (Sith Wayfinders, Lightspeed Skipping, Force Healing, Clone's catching spirits, Death Star Tech in a fleet of Destroyers, could go on) Rise of Skywalker didn't have to be as bad as it was. It chose to be that bad because JJ made it that bad.

The question of whether Snoke's background was necessary or the wisdom of Rey coming from nothing is immaterial to what I was saying. We've litigated those issues thoroughly. My point was that Johnson's decisions regarding those two were part of his love of subverting audience expectations. He consistently does it throughout the movie.

I honestly can't think of a worse duo to swap back and forth than Abrams and Johnson. As you say, Abrams loves mystery boxes. That doesn't pair well with a director that loves pulling the rug out from under audiences. Then to go back to the mystery box director makes the whole trilogy an absolute mess. There's absolutely no continuity in anything. The characters even behave wildly different from movie to movie.


I think Abrams was setting up Luke in exile to be something like Obi Wan. Obi Wan from the prequels and Clone Wars doesn't seem to be one that would go into hiding. However, Obi Wan also is motivated by duty. When his duty required him to go into hiding he did it. He didn't become an angry hermit. He did the job he had to do.

I think Luke could have been set up the same. He felt he had to go into hiding to protect his friends and wait to train someone who could defeat Kylo and Snoke. There was no reason to make him angry, bitter, and sarcastic. He could have been a tragic, self-sacrificing character. That would have fit the character from the original trilogy.


Yeah, you had warring children with Abrams and Johnson. They apparently don't like each other and their tug of war is obvious. Abrams sets up mysteries, Johnson blows them up, Abrams undermines Johnson's movie by trying to reclaim the mysteries. This is why you have to have a strong hand overseeing everything to ensure continuity. Like Feige with the MCU. Kennedy being unable to keep the story smooth is her biggest failure as head of Lucasfilm and there's a good bet it will cost her.

[zitothebrave]

But how does him killing Snoke subvert the mystery of Snoke's background? Did Vader throwing the Emperor down the shaft in the first movie with the Emperor in person in it hurt his mystery? No, he was a archetypical "bad guy" who was there as a means to the end for Vader's return to the light. Snoke's death was the final obstacle to get Kylo to the dark side. JJ could have made him killing Han the final step, but he did not. He still desperately needed Rey and we see Snoke speak to Hux about bringing Kylo back to complete his training.

You're not wrong about him subverting the mystery of Rey, but if you base what was given about Rey from the first movie, it was a clearly logical conclusion. Not the only one, but certainly one of them.

I can think of a worse duo to swap around. Michael Bay and any director who builds on substance.

I think you give Abrams and Kasden more credit than they showed. To me they seemed to just want to keep Luke on the sidelines because they didn't want him, Han and Leia to dominate the first movie. And likely Harrison Ford wanted out quickly, so he would be done with Han Solo. But like I said, quickly get rid of Luke in a blaze of glory in Episode Vii and bring Han in Episode VIII.

I think setting him up to be Obi Wan would have been done a different way. Like he would have given his location to Leia to pass along to Rey. Not left a bad MacGuffin.

I think Hamill said it best himself.

“It is tragic. I'm not a method actor, but one of the techniques a method actor will use is to try and use real-life experiences to relate to whatever fictional scenario he's involved in. The only thing I could think of, given the screenplay that I read, was that I was of the Beatles generation - ‘All You Need Is Love’, ‘peace and love’.

“I thought at that time, when I was a teenager: ‘By the time we get in power, there will be no more war, there will be no racial discrimination, and pot will be legal.’ So I'm one for three. When you think about it, [my generation is] a failure. The world is unquestionably worse now than it was then.”

[striker42]

But how does him killing Snoke subvert the mystery of Snoke's background? Did Vader throwing the Emperor down the shaft in the first movie with the Emperor in person in it hurt his mystery? No, he was a archetypical "bad guy" who was there as a means to the end for Vader's return to the light. Snoke's death was the final obstacle to get Kylo to the dark side. JJ could have made him killing Han the final step, but he did not. He still desperately needed Rey and we see Snoke speak to Hux about bringing Kylo back to complete his training.

You're not wrong about him subverting the mystery of Rey, but if you base what was given about Rey from the first movie, it was a clearly logical conclusion. Not the only one, but certainly one of them.

I can think of a worse duo to swap around. Michael Bay and any director who builds on substance.

I think you give Abrams and Kasden more credit than they showed. To me they seemed to just want to keep Luke on the sidelines because they didn't want him, Han and Leia to dominate the first movie. And likely Harrison Ford wanted out quickly, so he would be done with Han Solo. But like I said, quickly get rid of Luke in a blaze of glory in Episode Vii and bring Han in Episode VIII.

I think setting him up to be Obi Wan would have been done a different way. Like he would have given his location to Leia to pass along to Rey. Not left a bad MacGuffin.

I think Hamill said it best himself.

“It is tragic. I'm not a method actor, but one of the techniques a method actor will use is to try and use real-life experiences to relate to whatever fictional scenario he's involved in. The only thing I could think of, given the screenplay that I read, was that I was of the Beatles generation - ‘All You Need Is Love’, ‘peace and love’.

“I thought at that time, when I was a teenager: ‘By the time we get in power, there will be no more war, there will be no racial discrimination, and pot will be legal.’ So I'm one for three. When you think about it, [my generation is] a failure. The world is unquestionably worse now than it was then.”

It's not subverting Snoke's mystery, it's subverting the audience expectations. The identity of Snoke was clearly set up as a mystery in the first movie in classic Abrams style. It remained one of the most talked about questions leading up to Last Jedi along with Rey's parentage. Audiences expected either a reveal or at least some more hints. They had their expectations subverted and the mysteries blown up. Pairing Abrams love of mystery boxes with Johnson's love of subverting expectations was a terrible decision.

Johnson and Abrams have completely incompatible styles. They're like matter and antimatter. When their films come in contact they explode destroying both.

I don't think Luke would have given Leia or anyone information on where he was as Luke's motivation is always to protect his friends. They needed to be as in the dark as everyone else to protect them from Kylo and Snoke. The shift to bitter hermit was just so incompatible with the history of the character that it was like we weren't even watching the same character. If you were going to do that dramatic of a shift you would have needed some of Episode VII to set it up to be believable. As is, it was incredibly choppy.

The lack of a unified vision doomed the sequels. It doesn't matter what choices you liked or hated. The choices that were made didn't fit together and so we're left with a disaster.

[striker42]

I just finished my watch through of Rebels. I'd resisted watching that show due to the Disney-fied animation. However, with Thrawn being mentioned in The Mandalorian, I had to get caught up. I actually really enjoyed the show. The voice acting was terrific and the stories were really good.

It made me think that what we need is a Clone Wars style show that takes place during the Rebellion. See the fights the Rebellion gets into with Empire on a more grand scale than the Ghost centered Rebels.

[zitothebrave]

I just finished my watch through of Rebels. I'd resisted watching that show due to the Disney-fied animation. However, with Thrawn being mentioned in The Mandalorian, I had to get caught up. I actually really enjoyed the show. The voice acting was terrific and the stories were really good.

It made me think that what we need is a Clone Wars style show that takes place during the Rebellion. See the fights the Rebellion gets into with Empire on a more grand scale than the Ghost centered Rebels.

I want my Filoni Resistance show that is for teens and adults. Resistance was a fine show, but it was very kid friendly. It lacked a ton of grit, though the characters were great. I would love something grittier. Closer to Clone Wars or Rebels.

[striker42]

I want my Filoni Resistance show that is for teens and adults. Resistance was a fine show, but it was very kid friendly. It lacked a ton of grit, though the characters were great. I would love something grittier. Closer to Clone Wars or Rebels.

I haven't watched Resistance as I loathe the sequels and think a lot of the choices with the universe were terrible (going back to Force Awakens).

I'm not sure we'll see anything that ties in with the sequels for a while if we ever see anything at all

[zitothebrave]

I haven't watched Resistance as I loathe the sequels and think a lot of the choices with the universe were terrible (going back to Force Awakens).

I'm not sure we'll see anything that ties in with the sequels for a while if we ever see anything at all

I think we will. I think Disney would be foolish to not try. While there's a lot of butthurt people, the sequels drew over 2 Billion in the box office in just domestic. That's a lot of people who went to the movies. That's not as high as the OT when adjusted for inflation, it falls about 600M short, but it's more than the prequel trilogy adjusted for inflation. Which to me signals the interest is there.

There's a bit I was talking about on a different forum of discussion entirely. One of the companies I buy a ton of stuff for D&D from had people screaming for a certain product in a kickstarter, they acquiesced and it was their worst selling product. Sometimes the people who make the most noise, are not the people who spend the most money on a product.

And I think Disney will move into the sequel territory. I think their concern now is how long can they take the Mandalorian timeline. I don't think they want to risk stepping on the toes of their current most successful project with something else. Personally, I'd love nothing more than a Cano Bight show. Maybe set 10 years after TLJ with Broom Kid as the lead.

[striker42]

I think we will. I think Disney would be foolish to not try. While there's a lot of butthurt people, the sequels drew over 2 Billion in the box office in just domestic. That's a lot of people who went to the movies. That's not as high as the OT when adjusted for inflation, it falls about 600M short, but it's more than the prequel trilogy adjusted for inflation. Which to me signals the interest is there.

There's a bit I was talking about on a different forum of discussion entirely. One of the companies I buy a ton of stuff for D&D from had people screaming for a certain product in a kickstarter, they acquiesced and it was their worst selling product. Sometimes the people who make the most noise, are not the people who spend the most money on a product.

And I think Disney will move into the sequel territory. I think their concern now is how long can they take the Mandalorian timeline. I don't think they want to risk stepping on the toes of their current most successful project with something else. Personally, I'd love nothing more than a Cano Bight show. Maybe set 10 years after TLJ with Broom Kid as the lead.

The sequel trilogy were the first Star Wars films in decades. So people were going to pay to go see it. Even the people that hated the movies were still going and seeing them because they were Star Wars. And it's not just a tiny portion of the fandom that doesn't like those movies. The sequel trilogy was objectively bad regardless of your stance on Last Jedi. No matter what you do tying into those movies, you're going to have backlash that's not worth it. With all the other Star Wars content coming out, you're not going to have the captive audience the sequel trilogy had.

The issue with doing a tie in for the sequels is just how big the universe is. You can go a thousand years in the past a break new ground or take a deep dive into an area of the timeline we're more familiar with (as the Mandalorian did). You don't have to rehab the sequels. Why risk the backlash of focusing on the sequel time period when you can avoid that?

[zitothebrave]

Most people felt that the prequels were objectively bad, but many of those same people really enjoyed the Clone Wars, and fans of the prequels LOVED the Clone Wars

[striker42]

Most people felt that the prequels were objectively bad, but many of those same people really enjoyed the Clone Wars, and fans of the prequels LOVED the Clone Wars

Fair point, but the problem with the sequels was largely in execution. The acting was often terrible and there were some weird directing choices. The overall universe building that was done was quite good. In fact, the Clone Wars made the prequels better as it fleshed out the story. You got to see everything going on that was left out of the prequels leaving them sometimes choppy.

The sequels have bigger issues. The tug of war between Abrams and Johnson left them disjointed and without a very clean overarching story. Even if you had a series done well, it would be hamstrung but the lack of a coherent story in the sequels.

[zitothebrave]

Fair point, but the problem with the sequels was largely in execution. The acting was often terrible and there were some weird directing choices. The overall universe building that was done was quite good. In fact, the Clone Wars made the prequels better as it fleshed out the story. You got to see everything going on that was left out of the prequels leaving them sometimes choppy.

The sequels have bigger issues. The tug of war between Abrams and Johnson left them disjointed and without a very clean overarching story. Even if you had a series done well, it would be hamstrung but the lack of a coherent story in the sequels.

I personally don't think anyone's acting was terrible. The writing was pretty bad in RoS and at times in TFA with attempted meme lines everywhere "They fly now?" "Somehow Palpatine Returned" etc. But I wouldn't say anyone's acting was bad. No one was wooden like Natalie Portman in the prequels or just off like Hayden Christensen.

I think an overarching story that works with the main characters of the sequels through the events we saw in the movies could get everyone there. Start before the sequels as we see Palpatine pulling the strings (even though I hate that twist, **** you JJ) and talking with Snoke and Snoke's early training of Kylo Ren, leading to a break from the main characters, perhaps moving to the characters who eventually are introduced in RoS who were never shown before like Jannah, Pryde, Knights of Ren, Beaumont Kin, etc. and tell how they got to where they were in the last movie. There's a lot there for universe building that was absent from the sequels.

[striker42]

I personally don't think anyone's acting was terrible. The writing was pretty bad in RoS and at times in TFA with attempted meme lines everywhere "They fly now?" "Somehow Palpatine Returned" etc. But I wouldn't say anyone's acting was bad. No one was wooden like Natalie Portman in the prequels or just off like Hayden Christensen.

I think an overarching story that works with the main characters of the sequels through the events we saw in the movies could get everyone there. Start before the sequels as we see Palpatine pulling the strings (even though I hate that twist, **** you JJ) and talking with Snoke and Snoke's early training of Kylo Ren, leading to a break from the main characters, perhaps moving to the characters who eventually are introduced in RoS who were never shown before like Jannah, Pryde, Knights of Ren, Beaumont Kin, etc. and tell how they got to where they were in the last movie. There's a lot there for universe building that was absent from the sequels.

My bad, I typed sequels but meant prequels when talking about the execution and acting.

The prequels featured some terrible acting. As you noted, Portman and Christensen were both terrible. McGregor put the movies on his back. That being said, the overall story was unified and the Clone Wars really fleshed it out.

There's definitely gaps that a show about the sequels could fill, I'm just not sure the story is one worth telling. It might be putting lipstick on a pig.

[zitothebrave]

My bad, I typed sequels but meant prequels when talking about the execution and acting.

The prequels featured some terrible acting. As you noted, Portman and Christensen were both terrible. McGregor put the movies on his back. That being said, the overall story was unified and the Clone Wars really fleshed it out.

There's definitely gaps that a show about the sequels could fill, I'm just not sure the story is one worth telling. It might be putting lipstick on a pig.

Fair enough on point 1.

But I don't really agree on point 2. There was a lot of backstory that wasn't said in the PT. And an entire war glossed over. Clone Wars covered a ton of stuff that was plain absent and kind of important for the PT. And added a ton of content that was missing.

There could be something similar done in the ST. It would need to be a little larger scope IMO, but it's doable. I think Resistance did a good job of setting up TFA, but still something more to show the origins of the First Order and Resistance would be a good idea IMO. There's a whole character (Maz Kanata) who's barely fleshed out. The whole story about her getting the lightsaber. So much that could be told, probably will be told via books and comics, but could be told in a more compelling and digestible format on a TV show.

[zitothebrave]

[zitothebrave]

[striker42]

When you watch The Clone Wars show and really get to know the character of Anakin, it makes his fall so much more impactful. You really get to see him as a great Jedi and how his fall would have been devastating for everyone around him.

However, one of the biggest flaws of the prequels that the Clone Wars still couldn't fix was how far and fast Anakin fell. He went from Jedi Knight and hero of the Republic to evil child murderer very, very quickly. I didn't find the motivations behind that descent sufficient to cause that dramatic of a swing.

[zitothebrave]

When you watch The Clone Wars show and really get to know the character of Anakin, it makes his fall so much more impactful. You really get to see him as a great Jedi and how his fall would have been devastating for everyone around him.

However, one of the biggest flaws of the prequels that the Clone Wars still couldn't fix was how far and fast Anakin fell. He went from Jedi Knight and hero of the Republic to evil child murderer very, very quickly. I didn't find the motivations behind that descent sufficient to cause that dramatic of a swing.

The problem is that the films didn't paint a decent picture of Anakin.

[striker42]

The problem is that the films didn't paint a decent picture of Anakin.

The prequel films skip along the surface of the story like a stone on a lake. It's why the Clone Wars show makes the prequels so much better. It fills in so many holes in the story.

Even so, the fall of Anakin is still not believable to me. I don't think, even in the Clone Wars, enough was done to show the relationship between Palpatine and Anakin. How Anakin would throw off the relationship with Obi Wan in favor of Palpatine.

Honestly, it might take an entire show dedicated just to Anakin's fall to make it believable.

[zitothebrave]

The issue that I agree with you is it makes it hard for Anakin to fall. Though it provides another punctuation point with Ahsoka leaving the Jedi Order.

But honestly to me I agree it's not super believable. I think a better take would have been Anakin killing a jedi who found out about him and Padme and threatened to tell the council and he lashed out in "defense" and Palpatine was there to comfort him as the first step down the darkside, not Cutting off Dooku's head.

Though again, I think Lucas had the right idea that the Jedi Order sewed the seeds of their failure by their strict rules on things there shouldn't have been strict rules on.