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Thread: Still a lot left to do

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    Mr. Free Trade
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    Still a lot left to do

    While I generally applaud what has been done so far (the Olivera deal being the biggest issue that I have), I just don't want to see the Braves stop now at a position that I believe will be premature. I think the Braves still have movable assets that will help the rebuild long term and the difference between them staying for improved 2016 play versus going for improved 2017-18 play isn't enough to make me blink. I just don't see 78 wins as opposed to 68 wins being any better of a 2016.

    I look at the rebuild and the current team and see a few things:
    1. Freeman, since he apparently isn't available to be traded, is being counted on as the LH anchor of the lineup, now and for 17,18 and 19 at least. So he's one power LH anchor. The system has a couple of other potentials in Ruiz and Davidson, although both have huge questions. There isn't really anything else, ML or minor league above low A. In fact, it's entirely possible that Freeman is the only true ML LH power bat on the Braves in 2017, 18 and 19 without looking at outside acquisition.

    2. Olivera was brought in to be the RH version of Freeman. I'm not saying he WILL be but that he was projected to be. Nothing else makes sense. When he takes his first swing in 2016, he will already be 3 years past his baseball age prime. By the time the Braves new assets (acquired recently through trade and draft) are ready, Olivera will be mid 30's. Dubious to say the least which means he's probably a complete flop or, if not, is moved in the next two years to a win now team looking for that last over the hump piece. I can't see any way he's very effective at 35. Which is concerning since the Braves have NO current ML core RH bats and little that could be viewed as such at the minor league level. Swanson likely will be a core player but may be more of an all around guy or LO hitter than a slugging middle of the order producer. After that, about all you have is fairly disappointing Dustin Peterson and a very long way away Austin Riley above rookie league ball.

    3. On the bright side, the pitching acquired looks to provide a selection that a very nice rotation and pen can be constructed with. I would say the pitching has been addressed well.

    4. There are a few nice top of the order bats who won't slug much but are likely to get on base and score runs ahead of sluggers if the Braves can ever find any. Guys like Albies, Smith, maybe Swanson (although I have hope that he will hit well enough to be a #3) are all possible for LO. And then there is Inciarte.

    So, having said that, I have hopes that the Braves will continue to churn. Some examples of what I would LIKE to see (I don't limit to these exact deals, but use them as examples):

    1. Teheran and Inciarte to the Cubs for Soler, Baez, Eloy Jimenez. The Cubs desperately need Inciarte. They can't be serious about Heyward in center and Schwarber in LF and the whole convert Baez into a CF is just dumb for a team who has a real shot at a WS title. Their rotation isn't great either after their first three and I have to wonder about Lackey's ability to back up last year. They can afford to move all three of the players from their side with Heyward sliding into RF. They also have Gleyber Torres in A ball who will be a MI, likely taking over from Zobrist in a couple of years. For the Braves, it bring three RH power bats who have one year or less service time. The Braves could slide Soler into RF and Baez into ss THIS YEAR and, if they continue to develop, have them as RH core production bats in 17,18 and 19, all at a relatively affordable cost.

    2. With Soler slated for RF, that means Markakis is expendable. About the only place he would have value right now is Baltimore, where he has a strong fan base, including the manager. I don't think you could get much and certainly nothing that will help in 2016, but moving his contract has value in itself. Maybe best case would be Markakis for 3B Jomar Reyes or catcher Chance Sisco.

    3. With Baez starting every day at ss, then that makes Aybar expendable. Aybar is more valuable than Markais because he has a better contract. But, his possible homes are about as limited. To me, the best two locations are likely Pittsburgh and Chicago WS, with the Sox being a more likely destination. I could see Aybar to the sox for a package along the lines of OF Miker Adolfo and 2B Jake Peter. Aybar gives the WS a bridge to top prospect Tim Anderson while they try to compete in 2016.

    4. The Braves then sign a couple of high risk/high return guys for the rotation like Latos, Minor or Lincecum OR spend for Yaisel Sierra.

    You play Bourn and Swisher as much as possible early to see if you can develop some value and trade them. If they don't then you can cut them and bring up Mallex Smith at mid season and give him a try. I would see the team being:

    CF - Bourn
    2B - Beckham/Peterson Platoon
    SS - Baez
    1B - Freeman
    RF - Soler
    3B - Garcia/Johnson Platoon
    LF - Swisher/Olivera
    C - Flowers/AJ

    Bench: Beckham/Peterson, Garcia/Johnson, Swisher/Olivera, Flowers/AJ, Bonifacio, Castro

    M Smith up for Bourn at mid season because either Bourn is traded or released by then.
    Swisher traded, released or relegated to bench role at mid season.

    Rotation: Norris, Latos, Wisler, Banuelos, Floty (concentrate on developing Wisler, Manban, Folty, use Latos and Norris for trade is valuable, park Newcomb, Jenkins, Blair, Sims, Ellis, Gant at AAA)
    Pen: Viz, Grilli, Johnson, Krol, Winkler, McKirahan (start the year with those who don't have options and see what you have. Park Marksberry, Simmons, etc in the minors until needed)

    This team is likely a little worse than the "stand pat" team that keeps Teheran, Inciarte, Aybar and Markakis for 2016 but not by enough games to make any kind of difference.

    However, MAKING the moves brings in a number of useful long term bats to mix in with the pitching already acquired AND moves more payroll to allow for additional flexibility be it more international signings or FA signings in 2016 and 2017.

    The 2017 team COULD start: CF M Smith, 2B Peterson, 3B Baez, 1B Freeman, RF Soler, LF Olivera, SS Swanson, C Flowers with Davidson and Albies knocking on the door of LF and 2B respectively. And of course the rotation could be: Newcomb, Wisler, Blair, Folty, ManBan (or Sims or Fried or Jenkins or a FA signing)

    The only guys on that team that would cost anything would be Freeman and Olivera which leaves a lot of flexibility to add from outside or tie up current guys long term.
    Last edited by Horsehide Harry; 01-07-2016 at 01:01 AM.

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    Expects Yuge Games nsacpi's Avatar
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    I like the Teheran and Inciarte for the Baez, Soler, Jimenez proposal. Especially if combined with signing someone like Latos. I agree with some that Teheran's value will recover some this year and I'm not a big far of Soler. But timing is rarely perfect and overall that kind of trade moves us forward strategically. And I think overall value favors us slightly. With respect to signing someone like Latos, it would be helpful if it were more than a year, even with the second year being a generous option. That would allow for his value as a flippable asset to rise more if he has a good season.

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    I don't think we're done yet. I believe we'll see some more action after Upton and Cespedes find homes.

    I have no problem trading Julio if we get proper value for him. I don't believe we will this offseason though.

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    I am not sure your team would not be better than our current stand pat team. But I am not sure the Cubs would pull the trigger. It seems more and more likely that they want to hold on to Soler. I also feel the time to trade Nick is gone. I don't think Baltimore are interested in him any longer. The Aybar trade also would be a tough one as teams just are not looking for middle infielders right now. I would love to make all those trade however. Julio/Inciarte would be a bit scary because I am not completely sold on either Baez or Soler... but I love Eloy.

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    It would be an interesting July if we did stand pat and Markakis, Julio, and Aybar all had good first halves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nsacpi View Post
    I like the Teheran and Inciarte for the Baez, Soler, Jimenez proposal. Especially if combined with signing someone like Latos. I agree with some that Teheran's value will recover some this year and I'm not a big far of Soler. But timing is rarely perfect and overall that kind of trade moves us forward strategically. And I think overall value favors us slightly. With respect to signing someone like Latos, it would be helpful if it were more than a year, even with the second year being a generous option. That would allow for his value as a flippable asset to rise more if he has a good season.
    I agree on Latos. When I watch him I see a guy like a young Halladay or Carpenter potentially. I think he's a good gamble.

    Baez, Soler and Jimenez all are gambles but bring the RH middle of the order potential that the Braves lack. I think they are good gambles. If 2 of the 3 end up middle of the order bats for the Braves long term then the trade is a huge win. If just one does, it probably is a break even trade because you gain control at low cost (I know Teheran is realtively cheap today, as is Inciarte but Inciarte will get expensive fast if he stays good and Teheran goes to the $7M range in 2017.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chico View Post
    It would be an interesting July if we did stand pat and Markakis, Julio, and Aybar all had good first halves.
    If those guys all have good first halves, are we going to be sellers? Don't get me wrong.. I am all for selling..

    KJ, Bourn/Swisher (for free), Aybar, Julio, Nick, Beckham, Norris, BP pieces (JJ/Grilli and other older ones).. if you blow me away, I would trade FF.. but like others, I don't want to set back our time frame of competing.. the return would have to be almost ready/ready MLB talent (at least one or two that is)

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    Quote Originally Posted by bravesfanMatt View Post
    I am not sure your team would not be better than our current stand pat team. But I am not sure the Cubs would pull the trigger. It seems more and more likely that they want to hold on to Soler. I also feel the time to trade Nick is gone. I don't think Baltimore are interested in him any longer. The Aybar trade also would be a tough one as teams just are not looking for middle infielders right now. I would love to make all those trade however. Julio/Inciarte would be a bit scary because I am not completely sold on either Baez or Soler... but I love Eloy.
    I think if Baltimore eventually re-signs Davis then Markakis probably can't be traded there. Right now, I think it a little better than 50-50 that Davis ends up re-signing there. The Braves could always agree to send some cash IF the return was better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chico View Post
    It would be an interesting July if we did stand pat and Markakis, Julio, and Aybar all had good first halves.
    I think chances are some will have good first halves and some won't. If I had to guess, I would say Teheran is likely to improve quite a bit over his start last year, Markakis is likely to improve some and Aybar will regress.

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    I see no reason to trade all the assets now. In a perfect world, Julio has a great first half, and we get a team to overpay big time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Horsehide Harry View Post
    I think chances are some will have good first halves and some won't. If I had to guess, I would say Teheran is likely to improve quite a bit over his start last year, Markakis is likely to improve some and Aybar will regress.
    I see Nick drops a bit.. power might pick up a bit.. but he will drop in OBP and AVG. I agree Julio is better.. I am not sure about Ender or Aybar. I waiver on both of those.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bravesnumberone View Post
    I see no reason to trade all the assets now. In a perfect world, Julio has a great first half, and we get a team to overpay big time.
    In an imperfect world, Julio tears his labrum and ends up watching TV with Josh Johnson.

    Would the return be better IF Teheran had a 1.69 era in the first half? Of course. Will he? Unknown but unlikely. Could the Braves trade him if he did? Doubtful.

    This isn't the ideal time to move him but it's probably the best time there will be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bravesfanMatt View Post
    I see Nick drops a bit.. power might pick up a bit.. but he will drop in OBP and AVG. I agree Julio is better.. I am not sure about Ender or Aybar. I waiver on both of those.
    I think Ender regresses too out of the Arizona park and few bats around him to offer any kind of protection.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Horsehide Harry View Post
    I think Ender regresses too out of the Arizona park and few bats around him to offer any kind of protection.
    Yeah. If you think about him and Julio together as a package, the upside and downside risks of significant change in valuation over the first half of 2016 seem about even.

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    Another option for getting a RHed bat into the organization is to simply sign JUp or Ces. It would be a move similar to what the Nats did when they signed Werth. They finished 69-93 in 2010, and then signed Werth that offseason to be a pillar of their rebuild. They went on to win 80 games in 2011, and 98 games in 2012.

    Gordon just signed for about 75% of his expected price tag, so if JUp or Ces can be had for similar bargains I think the Braves should get in the bidding. I just wish they hadn't wasted money on guys like Boni, Beckham and Norris.
    Last edited by Enscheff; 01-07-2016 at 12:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enscheff View Post
    Another option for getting a RHed bat into the organization is to simply sign JUp or Ces. It would be a move similar to what the Nats did when they signed Werth. They finished 69-93 in 2010, and then signed Werth that offseason to be a pillar of their rebuild. They went on to win 80 games in 2011, and 98 games in 2012.

    Gordon just signed for about 75% of his expected price tag, so if JUp or Ces can be had for similar bargains I think the Braves should get in the bidding. I just wish they hadn't wasted money on guys like Boni, Beckham and Norris.
    can't b/c
    We moved Olivera to LF after giving up a ton for him
    We signed nick the stick to a 4 year deal
    we will not give up the draft pick

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enscheff View Post
    Another option for getting a RHed bat into the organization is to simply sign JUp or Ces. It would be a move similar to what the Nats did when they signed Werth. They finished 69-93 in 2010, and then signed Werth that offseason to be a pillar of their rebuild. They went on to win 80 games in 2011, and 98 games in 2012.

    Gordon just signed for about 75% of his expected price tag, so if JUp or Ces can be had for similar bargains I think the Braves should get in the bidding. I just wish they hadn't wasted money on guys like Boni, Beckham and Norris.
    I would love to resign JUP. I've said this for quite a bit as it is and I think he'd love to come back knowing how strong we SHOULD be soon enough. It all depends on the tag. It all depends on several moves, but adding someone like him and finding a way to acquire a guy like Baez would be incredible. Our lineup would be stacked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UNCBlue012 View Post
    I would love to resign JUP. I've said this for quite a bit as it is and I think he'd love to come back knowing how strong we SHOULD be soon enough. It all depends on the tag. It all depends on several moves, but adding someone like him and finding a way to acquire a guy like Baez would be incredible. Our lineup would be stacked.
    so what about signing Jup.. trade Julio for Baez and Contreras.. Then you have a 2017 lineup like this

    Albies 2nd
    Inciarte CF
    FF 1b
    Jup RF
    Swanson SS
    Baez 3B
    Contreras C
    HO LF

    or would you trade bench HO and have Jup in LF and Nick Markickass in RF..

    Albies would be the only one I wasn't sure would be ready for opening day 17..

    Also, Baez finished the season well.. but he still worries me with his K rate. Jup is horrid defensively and disappears for long stretches..

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    I'd target fBaez for 3b for sure. They want Inciarte bad but I'm not sure I'd trade him. I'd rather trade Teheran and get Contreras back as well. Not sure the team would want Upton back with giving up a pick, but if his price keeps dropping I would. We need him for the future.

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    Replace Jup with cespes

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