Hopefully we can have a real fact-driven discussion in this thread and focus less on stale political positions.
What is known so far about the shooting at an Orlando area gay club, which is the worst mass shooting in American history
- 'around' 50 murdered, another 50 wounded
- shooter was well-prepared, identified as potential radical Islam extremist, an American citizen from Port St. Lucie named Omar Mateen.
Saw a couple tweets quoting his dad saying the shooter was angered a couple weeks earlier when 2 men were making out in front of his wife and his son at a local beach
Seemed motivated by anti-gay positions... also during pride month
Terrifying that we are still at a point as a species that we murder people for making lifestyle choices.
Everyone in this country in some respects is a minority. Because of that we are all at risk of being a victim of something like this.
Dalyn (06-12-2016), jpx7 (06-12-2016), zitothebrave (06-12-2016)
CNN reporting somebody was just arrested at LA Pride with guns and explosives in their car.
jpx7 (06-12-2016)
Humans will never evolve beyond being sinners. That's no excuse for sin. And make no mistake, this was sin. This was evil. This was wickedness. And there is such a thing as wickedness, evil, and sin.
Last edited by BedellBrave; 06-12-2016 at 01:04 PM.
"good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion."- Physicist Stephen WeinbergOriginally Posted by BedellBrave
Until the evil of religion is wiped from the face of the earth, sadly, crap like this is going to continue.
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"- Tom Waits
Interesting that you use moral categories and judgments, even I suspect elevating them to have overarching meaning for others, and act as if you are nonreligious. That sort of thinking can just as easily lead to killing fields and gulags, more easily than I'd say a serious commitment to "love your enemies" and "turn the other cheek."
Last edited by BedellBrave; 06-12-2016 at 01:51 PM.
jpx7 (06-12-2016)
Real talk.
Theologically-premised or not, the path to the Good is not paved with rank divisiveness and ritual dismissal of the other, nor with deaf adherence to hate and blind embracing of violence.
"For all his tattooings he was on the whole a clean, comely looking cannibal."
BedellBrave (06-12-2016)
lol, nice try....
I judge religion because it is evil. all one has to do is look at it's history of death, slavery, rape, violence... etc Belief and magical thinking make people do and say stupid things. It turns bad men into monsters and make good men do evil. Anything that is defined by blund adherence and rejects individual thought and criticism is inherently bad for society.
the good thing is, it's going extinct (at least in the western world) science and rational thought are winning. sadly, I won't live long enough to see it's demise, but I can dream about it. everything good done by religion can be done better by other, secular methods.
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"- Tom Waits
I'm not particularly religious but I suggest you crack open a few more history books. People with no religious beliefs have shown themselves equally capable of unconscionably evil acts. Why is everyone on the Internet a goddamn expert? Everyone wants to blame just one thing so it'll fit their agenda. Maybe it can be a combination of multiple things. As Bernie might say, that's a really radical idea. If more people were heroes like the ones standing in line to give blood, the world would be so much more tolerable.
BedellBrave (06-12-2016), Garmel (06-12-2016)
Secularism has had its own share of good and bad as well. Look at the death 20th century secularism has caused. Religion is not the root of all evil. Human nature is.
BedellBrave (06-12-2016)
sigh........ I am a ****ing expert (as many athesits are, we tend to know more about religion than the proclaimed religious do) . ( And your logical fallacy noted)
Please name one evil event done in the name of atheism. Not for political reasons, or power reasons, but because "the lack of a god forces me to make this decision"
that's what I thought.
religion, by it's very nature, creates dogmatic, violent behavior. Millions have died IN THE NAME OF religion. nobody dies in the name of atheism.
and the funny thing is you tole ME, to read some history. Bitch I have forgotten more history than you will ever know. and physics, and astronomy, and pretty much everything else because I am a ****ing reading machine, brilliantly intelligent, and a master user of logic and critical thinking. and an arrogant ass who could care less what you peasants think.
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"- Tom Waits
Seriously, how is it, in the year 2016 that there are grown adults who believe an invisible sky wizard controls and created the world? It boggles the mind! We laugh at children and the easter bunny, or santa clause, but religion gets a free pass! why? it's equally silly, made up and nonsensical.
It brings comfort to people? sorry, only stupid people. #deathtoallreligion
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"- Tom Waits
cajunrevenge (06-14-2016)
Yeah, was that the same "logical" guy who used to threaten people over at Chopnation? Is this the same "logical" guy who used to threaten suicide on the Chopnation boards? Dude, get over yourself.
Last edited by Garmel; 06-12-2016 at 03:41 PM.
1. No argument on the arrogance part.
2. Congrats on being an atheist and having all the answers. Good thing I never mentioned atheism. Just pointing out all atrocities aren't religion-based. I know religious people who are wonderful, best of the best. I know some who are hypocritical, hateful little ****s.
3. Learn some grammar after you close the history books.
BedellBrave (06-12-2016), Garmel (06-12-2016), jpx7 (06-12-2016)
Donald?
"For all his tattooings he was on the whole a clean, comely looking cannibal."
BedellBrave (06-12-2016), DaneHill (06-12-2016), Garmel (06-12-2016)
I know grammar, this is the internet and I type real ****ing fast on an old keyboard with half the letters blacked out. if all you can do is attack me and not my ideas, that's an ad-hominem and is the sign of a simple mind (but I knew that already.)
I son't know how old some of you are, but the state of modern education is worse than I thought, all you people can do is shift blame to the arguer and ignore their argument. None of you have any ideas. None of you have the ability to debate. it's really sad.
and I'm sorry that you are out of your league, it's not my fault I put in the effort to learn these things.
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"- Tom Waits
...
Last edited by bravos4evr; 06-12-2016 at 04:02 PM.
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"- Tom Waits
We woke up Sunday morning to news of the worst mass shooting in American history, as a terrorist murdered and injured over a hundred people in a gay nightclub in Orlando. In the aftermath, we’ve seen some of the best aspects of America: people lining up, for example, to give blood for the victims. We’ve also seen some of the worst—as the aftermath turned into an excuse for social media wars over everything from gun control to presidential politics. What I wonder is whether the country still has the capacity to grieve, together, in moments of national crisis.
When we’re accustomed to seeing news in real time on our television screens and on our phones, it is sometimes easy to forget that the news we are viewing is real. At least fifty people—created in the image of God—were slaughtered in cold blood. Families who were waiting to see their loved ones are finding out today that they will never see them again in this life. That ought to drive us to mourn.
Our nation has shared moments of crisis and tragedy before. Think of Pearl Harbor, when the country rallied around President Roosevelt and toward a common purpose of defeating the Axis Powers. Think of the John Kennedy assassination when the country—even the Kennedy family’s enemies—seemed to grieve together. Think of September 11—before the fracturing of the Iraq War—when the country looked to common cultural expressions from the service at the National Cathedral to the cold open of Saturday Night Live for a sense of lament together.
It seems now, though, that there’s rarely a time of grieving together. The time of lament morphs almost immediately into arguments over what the President should have said or whether this validates or annihilates someone’s views on guns or immigration or whatever. Some of that, of course, is just the speed of social media. People are able to discuss, rather publicly, issues much quicker than they could before. But there seems to be more than that.
Our national divisions increasingly make it difficult for us not just to work together, but even to pause and weep together. We become more concerned about protecting ourselves from one another’s political pronouncements than we do with mourning with those who mourn.
In some ways, then, national crises like this one feel less like the 1963 John Kennedy assassination than like the attempted George Wallace assassination of 1972. Reports are that some within the Nixon Administration, arguably even the President himself, contemplated planting George McGovern campaign literature in the would-be-assailant Arthur Bremer’s apartment. The shooting in Laurel, Maryland, was about, for them, the campaign itself. That sort of cynicism is, ultimately, dehumanizing.
How then do we weep with those who weep?
Let’s call our congregations to pray together. Let’s realize that, in this case, our gay and lesbian neighbors are likely quite scared. Who wouldn’t be? Demonstrate the sacrificial love of Jesus to them. We don’t have to agree on the meaning of marriage and sexuality to love one another and to see the murderous sin of terrorism. Let’s also pray for our leaders who have challenging decisions to make in the midst of crisis. Let’s mobilize our congregations and others to give blood for the victims. Let’s call for governing authorities to do their primary duty of keeping its people safe from evildoers.
And let’s bear patiently with those who jump the gun, in arguing about the politics on social media. For many of them, the jump to talk about gun control or Islam or military preparedness or any other issue isn’t so much about pontificating as it is about frustration. They, like all of us, want this horror to end, and they want to do something—even if that’s just expressing themselves on Twitter.
As the Body of Christ, though, we can love and serve and weep and mourn. And we can remind ourselves and our neighbors that this is not the way it is supposed to be. We mourn, but we mourn in the hope of a kingdom where blood is not shed and where bullets never fly.
Link
Sigh.
"Good...bad...evil..."
Oi vey.
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