Swanson getting the call...

[VirginiaBrave]

Im confused on your grammar, but Heyward is far from a dud.

I fixed it for you. It was 2 AM. Doesn't change fact that Heyward is still a dud compared to all the hype that was behind him. He is one of the biggest flops in Braves history. He has gone from HOF can't miss prospect to 4th OFer. Makes me question his work ethic. He certainly doesn't have a one track mind on baseball or like Andruw he's too close minded to adjustments. That's not really a knock on Jones he just left a ton on the table after Merv Rhettmund ruined him imo.

[Julio3000]

I fixed it for you. It was 2 AM. Doesn't change fact that Heyward is still a dud compared to all the hype that was behind him. He is one of the biggest flops in Braves history. He has gone from HOF can't miss prospect to 4th OFer. Makes me question his work ethic. He certainly doesn't have a one track mind on baseball or like Andruw he's too close minded to adjustments. That's not really a knock on Jones he just left a ton on the table after Merv Rhettmund ruined him imo.

[thewupk]

That's funny. That original movie title is one of the most absurd titles I've ever seen.

[thewupk]

I fixed it for you. It was 2 AM. Doesn't change fact that Heyward is still a dud compared to all the hype that was behind him. He is one of the biggest flops in Braves history. He has gone from HOF can't miss prospect to 4th OFer. Makes me question his work ethic. He certainly doesn't have a one track mind on baseball or like Andruw he's too close minded to adjustments. That's not really a knock on Jones he just left a ton on the table after Merv Rhettmund ruined him imo.

Ddin't know there were such things as HOF can't miss prospects.

[clvclv]

I don't understand because 2012-2015 did happen. Where he put up a 273/348/433 - 118 WRC+ in 2350 PA's. Is that not being able to hit?

You have the 'hitting first' OF in Justin Upton who hit 266/346/460 - 123 WRC+ in that same time frame.

Both of those were paid 20+ million a year for those numbers. Heyward got paid a little more and a little longer for obvious reasons. But the truth is that an OF in the 120 WRC+ range is going to be getting 20+ per year and that number will go up as times goes on.

Which is fine. The Braves can afford that since they're not paying either of those two. They were in no position to pay either of them (much less both), and are in far better shape as a franchise for having traded them. They both got their big paydays and are both having awfully tough times living up to their ends of those contracts thus far. Maybe things will change and they'll bounce back.

Until that happens, a lot of folks will be happy that the Braves aren't the ones paying them. As things stand today, $36 million "wasted" on Kemp looks like a better deal than $120+ million spent on either of them without even factoring in the pieces they brought in return.

[thewupk]

Which is fine. The Braves can afford that since they're not paying either of those two. They were in no position to pay either of them (much less both), and are in far better shape as a franchise for having traded them. They both got their big paydays and are both having awfully tough times living up to their ends of those contracts thus far. Maybe things will change and they'll bounce back.

Until that happens, a lot of folks will be happy that the Braves aren't the ones paying them. As things stand today, $36 million "wasted" on Kemp looks like a better deal than $120+ million spent on either of them without even factoring in the pieces they brought in return.

Sure. If you expected both to bottom out this year then that's fine. But I doubt that's the case. There are many that think Heyward's numbers from 2012-2015 didn't warrant 20+ million a year and I fail to see that. Given that is the current market for those types of numbers.

[zbhargrove]

And yet another thread has turned into a Heyward b*tch fest

[gilesfan]

Which is fine. The Braves can afford that since they're not paying either of those two. They were in no position to pay either of them (much less both), and are in far better shape as a franchise for having traded them. They both got their big paydays and are both having awfully tough times living up to their ends of those contracts thus far. Maybe things will change and they'll bounce back.

Until that happens, a lot of folks will be happy that the Braves aren't the ones paying them. As things stand today, $36 million "wasted" on Kemp looks like a better deal than $120+ million spent on either of them without even factoring in the pieces they brought in return.

There is no possible way I could conceive that paying Kemp is a better deal than paying Heyward. Jason doesn't even have to hit a lick to be a better player than Kemp.

[clvclv]

There is no possible way I could conceive that paying Kemp is a better deal than paying Heyward. Jason doesn't even have to hit a lick to be a better player than Kemp.

He's going to have to play a helluva lot of defense in that case - his AAV jumps to $21.28 million plus this winter. The reason that Kemp's a better deal is that even if neither of them hit, Kemp's off the books following 2018 - oh yeah, and he costs $113 million less.

[clvclv]

Sure. If you expected both to bottom out this year then that's fine. But I doubt that's the case. There are many that think Heyward's numbers from 2012-2015 didn't warrant 20+ million a year and I fail to see that. Given that is the current market for those types of numbers.

I don't think most people (me, anyway) have ever really argued whether that's what the numbers said as much as they argued the Braves simply couldn't spend that kind of money on someone without getting more offense that fit the team's needs (from a non-analytical standpoint). I think it's pretty obvious that the organization has begun to look more closely at the numbers than ever before (with the shifts, focus on acquiring more OBP-oriented players, power arms, etc.), but I imagine it will be a LONG time before they're ever considered an analytics-first operation. There are simply too many people left who remember the "Braves Way" and how well it worked - for a long time. Whether it's maximizing the new numbers or not, the Braves will likely ALWAYS have their best hitter hitting third, and they'll likely ALWAYS want a big power threat hitting behind him. Having guys like Sheffield, McGriff, and Andruw "protecting" Chipper made them awfully successful for a long time.

If they thought the 2012 Heyward was still in there somewhere, I wouldn't have complained if they'd have paid him $30 million per personally.

[Knucksie]

And yet another thread has turned into a Heyward b*tch fest

His fanboys will never admit that he doesn't really walk on water.

[thewupk]

I don't think most people (me, anyway) have ever really argued whether that's what the numbers said as much as they argued the Braves simply couldn't spend that kind of money on someone without getting more offense that fit the team's needs (from a non-analytical standpoint). I think it's pretty obvious that the organization has begun to look more closely at the numbers than ever before (with the shifts, focus on acquiring more OBP-oriented players, power arms, etc.), but I imagine it will be a LONG time before they're ever considered an analytics-first operation. There are simply too many people left who remember the "Braves Way" and how well it worked - for a long time. Whether it's maximizing the new numbers or not, the Braves will likely ALWAYS have their best hitter hitting third, and they'll likely ALWAYS want a big power threat hitting behind him. Having guys like Sheffield, McGriff, and Andruw "protecting" Chipper made them awfully successful for a long time.

If they thought the 2012 Heyward was still in there somewhere, I wouldn't have complained if they'd have paid him $30 million per personally.

It's a different argument on whether the Braves should have committed that money than is he worth it. Is he worth it to the Braves? Clearly not as they feel his game doesn't fit well into what the Braves are looking for at that price. And that's fine. I can see that point of view and I have no issue with it. But his salary is in line with what he's produced. Whether you or anyone else agrees with it or not is your opinion but that is what the market has shown.

[Enscheff]

Nobody would have given Heyward that contract if they had known this is how he would play in 2016. Same thing with JUp.

Like it or not, the Braves dodged a huge bullet letting those 2 guys go.

[Preacher]

Nobody would have given Heyward that contract if they had known this is how he would play in 2016. Same thing with JUp.

Like it or not, the Braves dodged a huge bullet letting those 2 guys go.

yup. Heyward has cratered; doesn't mean going into this year that deal was a big overplay, but for how he's played so far it looks like the Braves are very lucky not have given him a big money deal.

[zbhargrove]

Nobody would have given Heyward that contract if they had known this is how he would play in 2016. Same thing with JUp.

Like it or not, the Braves dodged a huge bullet letting those 2 guys go.

I think this is an important fact that everyone needs to just come to terms with. Whether you liked the trade at the time or not... whether you think we got fair value for their production at that point in their careers or not... whether you think it was a wrong decision not to give either huge amounts of money or not... it certainly does look like we have dodged a huge bullet at least thus far.

[blueagleace1]

I don't get why folks are so upset about losing that extra year of arbitration for Swanson because I feel pretty confident that if Dansby is what most scouts and we as avid/knowledgeable fans think he can/will be, then the Braves will at least lock him up like we did with Teheran, Kimbrel, and Simmons by buying out his last few arb years and the first few FA years at least! Wouldn't surprise me either for them to lock him up even longer if he is what we think he'll be.

I would get the frustration if it was someone who is really good and we had money crunch situation but Dansby is a cornerstone player and I just don't see how he's not in Atlanta for AT LEAST the first few FA years.

I know some folks don't believe we're going to be competitive next year while the front office does, but these at-bats could be extremely valuable in his learning curve if we are there next year and if not he's going to have a year + worth of experience going into 2018 (when I think we will be extremely competitive) compared to just one year.

My main thing is this, if the F.O thinks he's capable of playing at this level now, then bring him up. Like I said, I truly believe the losing of an extra year isn't going to matter so bring him up when they think he's ready.