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Thread: The Trump Presidency

  1. #20081
    I <3 Ron Paul + gilesfan sturg33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldfly View Post
    Ah, the march to fascism with y’all continues down a darker road than already on
    Luckily our founders were wise enough to not make us a democracy

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    A Chip Off the Old Rock Julio3000's Avatar
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    Whew. Well, I think it’s good that people aren’t being coy about this anymore.

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    It's OVER 5,000! cajunrevenge's Avatar
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    Trump has officially turned into Captain Hindsight for everything bad that happens.
    "State power feeds on crisis and enemies"

    John T. Flynn 1944

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    A Chip Off the Old Rock Julio3000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sturg33 View Post
    Luckily our founders were wise enough to not make us a democracy
    That’s some fairly interesting hair-splitting.

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  7. #20085
    Arizona Fall Leaguer BravesBlock's Avatar
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    I believe my college professor categorized the USA as a Limited Federal Democratic Republic.

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    Shift Leader thethe's Avatar
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    Capitalism facilitates democracy. Wothout economic opportunity and stability, democracy/freedom crumbles.

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    A Chip Off the Old Rock Julio3000's Avatar
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    Hmm. How does China fit into this worldview? Because they’re undeniably major participants in global capitalism, yet not anything close to what you would call a free society. Or Singapore, lauded as a bastion of economic freedom, yet not a free society?

    The US slave economy was capitalist, though decidedly not democratic. Chattel slavery was in fact an innovation of capitalism.

    I think you guys are a tad muddled on this one. Suggesting that capitalism is good at mitigating extreme poverty is one thing. It’s actually been pretty good at that; over time, and with enough exploitative expenditure. Suggesting that it promotes equality or democracy is something else entirely. But I guess that’s the rub. You—and I mean thethe and sturg and Stephen Moore and whoever else—don’t really care about democracy, or equality. You’re content with a framework that allows nominal equality—ie the rich and poor alike are forbidden from sleeping under bridges. Theoretically, anyone can achieve upward mobility, but in practice, it’s a self-sustaining machine for plutocracy...which is, again, just fine with you.

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  11. #20088
    Shift Leader thethe's Avatar
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    Theoretically, meaning anyone that gives a damn and tries.

  12. #20089
    I <3 Ron Paul + gilesfan sturg33's Avatar
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    You're content with a framework that in theory, calls for making everyone more equal by sharing the resources collectively, but in practice, it's a system where few get rich and the rest suffer from starvation... Which is, again, just fine with you.

    That's fun.

    .......

    Capitalism is the free exchange of goods and services. It's needs a free people to do it. The US does it better than most but does not do it completely. And while yes, China has opened it's markets tremendously over the last 20 years, el-oh-el at the notion they are a capitalist economy.

    Democracy always leads to mob rule and here we here we are... Where few are dictating what the rest of us must do in the name in the collective.

    I'll pass.

  13. #20090
    I <3 Ron Paul + gilesfan sturg33's Avatar
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    The education systems attempt to completely dumb Americans has been enormously successful (and expensive)


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    It's OVER 5,000! 57Brave's Avatar
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    let me add, there are those with college degrees that fail to understand or consider the Heritage Foundation has a dog in the fight before taking their word as gospel

    because as a famed late night comic sarcastically opined " knowledge has a liberal bias"
    I paraphrase
    “Reject the logic that says someone else’s gain necessitates my loss, and that my gain must come at the cost of another person.”

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    It's OVER 5,000! 57Brave's Avatar
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    “Reject the logic that says someone else’s gain necessitates my loss, and that my gain must come at the cost of another person.”

  16. #20093
    I <3 Ron Paul + gilesfan sturg33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 57Brave View Post
    let me add, there are those with college degrees that fail to understand or consider the Heritage Foundation has a dog in the fight before taking their word as gospel

    because as a famed late night comic sarcastically opined " knowledge has a liberal bias"
    I paraphrase
    Would you like to discuss the data found from the Woodrow Wilson National Leadership institute or would you prefer to dismiss everything based on the source of who summarized the findings?

    You have a tendency to blatantly ignore data that doesn't support your unicorn land

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    It's OVER 5,000! 57Brave's Avatar
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    Reading the link I notice there is no historical context or suggestions on how to improve.
    Only the low hanging fruit of shock numbers

    Sticker shock
    ................



    I'd bet 60% of homeowners dont know how to install a ceiling fan
    60% of auto owners dont know how to change oil

    what is the point other than to bash the education system to justify the cutting of funding.

    I'm impressed 40% know the steps of the amendment process given there hasn't been a real life amendment push (federal because I take for granted each state has their own requirements) in your lifetime, 1/2 know the length of terms and 3/5 understand war powers
    ................

    Guessing we have a glass half full guy here talking to a glass half empty guy.
    Last edited by 57Brave; 04-16-2019 at 12:16 PM.
    “Reject the logic that says someone else’s gain necessitates my loss, and that my gain must come at the cost of another person.”

  18. #20095
    if my thought dreams could be seen goldfly's Avatar
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    Hey, the heritage foundation mention

    I remember when they came up with ACA aka Obamacare
    "If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin. It is a very great mistake to imagine that the object of loyalty is the authority and interest of one individual man, however dignified by the applause or enriched by the success of popular actions.” Samuel Adams

    "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act" George Orwell

  19. #20096
    Hessmania Forever
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    Quote Originally Posted by sturg33 View Post
    Luckily our founders were wise enough to not make us a democracy
    Yeah, I guess that's why de Tocqueville wrote Oligarchy in America. Oh wait. We are a mixed system that incorporates both republican and democratic ideas. The strict republican elements were greatly loosened by the generation following the founders, particularly Andrew Jackson's tenure. The US is not a direct democracy, but a number of states have expanded opportunities for that.

    Economic and political systems don't necessarily go hand-in-hand, but I wouldn't expect anything other than what he said to come out of Stephen Moore's mouth.
    Last edited by 50PoundHead; 04-16-2019 at 12:48 PM.

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    I <3 Ron Paul + gilesfan sturg33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 50PoundHead View Post
    Yeah, I guess that's why de Tocqueville wrote Oligarchy in America. Oh wait. We are a mixed system that incorporates both republican and democratic ideas. The strict republican elements were greatly loosened by the generation following the founders, particularly Andrew Jackson's tenure. The US is not a direct democracy, but a number of states have expanded opportunities for that.

    Economic and political systems don't necessarily go hand-in-hand, but I wouldn't expect anything other than what he said to come out of Stephen Moore's mouth.
    Let's be clear... this isn't an either or here as our leftist friends would like to make it.

    I think preserving capitalism is the best way to preserve individual liberty.

  21. #20098
    A Chip Off the Old Rock Julio3000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sturg33 View Post
    You're content with a framework that in theory, calls for making everyone more equal by sharing the resources collectively, but in practice, it's a system where few get rich and the rest suffer from starvation... Which is, again, just fine with you.

    That's fun.

    .......

    Capitalism is the free exchange of goods and services. It's needs a free people to do it. The US does it better than most but does not do it completely. And while yes, China has opened it's markets tremendously over the last 20 years, el-oh-el at the notion they are a capitalist economy.

    Democracy always leads to mob rule and here we here we are... Where few are dictating what the rest of us must do in the name in the collective.

    I'll pass.
    I said that China was a major participant in global capitalism, which they undoubtedly are. You subscribe to a platonic ideal of capitalism which I’m not sure that any state actually meets. Is there a state which is, in your definition, capitalist?

    I’m confused by the chicken-and-egg aspect of this. Per your statements, it takes a free people to effect a free exchange of goods and services (i.e. capitalism). But it takes capitalism to ensure individual liberty, i.e. a free people. Is there anywhere in the world where these conditions—either of them—are met? Has there ever been?

    It’s hard for me to avoid the suspicion that what you mean by a “free society” means a society where a wealthy and privileged class enjoys a large degree of economic freedom. The US was the engine of global capitalism when a substantial proportion of its population enjoyed few civil rights, or “freedom,” if you prefer.

    China certainly exchanges a lot of goods and services. So did the slaveholding US. So did the British Empire in its Imperial heyday. Each of these entities could be (or soon will be) rightfully called the most dynamic force in world capitalism, without being what anyone would fairly call a free society.

    Your definition of capitalism really seems to only include the positive while explicitly excluding the negative. Regulatory capture and corruption in the US, for example, is dismissed by you as a bug in government rather than a feature of capitalism, which I’d argue it pretty clearly is, just the practical version rather than the platonic ideal.

    You like to post those tweets periodically about the eradication of global poverty, yet a delving into those statistics ends up realizing that they lean really hard on China. Since their transition to so-called market socialism, they’ve provided the lion’s share of that global poverty reduction. Yet they’re neither wholly capitalist nor a free society.

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  23. #20099
    if my thought dreams could be seen goldfly's Avatar
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    "If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin. It is a very great mistake to imagine that the object of loyalty is the authority and interest of one individual man, however dignified by the applause or enriched by the success of popular actions.” Samuel Adams

    "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act" George Orwell

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    It's OVER 5,000! 57Brave's Avatar
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    His threats against Rep Omar are being glossed over as "Donald being Donald"
    But think for a second and wonder,

    Has our society allowed this man to live above the law?

    consider this from south central Pennsylvania

    A Reading man was sentenced to one year of probation after admitting in court that he told a counselor he wanted to kill his state parole agent.
    “Reject the logic that says someone else’s gain necessitates my loss, and that my gain must come at the cost of another person.”

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