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Thread: The Trump Presidency

  1. #3601
    A Chip Off the Old Rock Julio3000's Avatar
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    So there's no material difference between a foreign power stealing data while attempting to interfere with the election and an American political party attempting to get their candidate elected? Interesting take.

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    I <3 Ron Paul + gilesfan sturg33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julio3000 View Post
    So there's no material difference between a foreign power stealing data while attempting to interfere with the election and an American political party attempting to get their candidate elected? Interesting take.
    If you have proof they stole data - please let me know.

    In the meantime, we do have proof that the DNC is incompetent and corrupt. But let's quickly divert your attention over to RUSSIA!

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    Shift Leader thethe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julio3000 View Post
    So there's no material difference between a foreign power stealing data while attempting to interfere with the election and an American political party attempting to get their candidate elected? Interesting take.
    You don't think NBC and NYT are trying to get one candidate elected?

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  5. #3605
    A Chip Off the Old Rock Julio3000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sturg33 View Post
    If you have proof they stole data - please let me know.

    In the meantime, we do have proof that the DNC is incompetent and corrupt. But let's quickly divert your attention over to RUSSIA!
    What is publicly known is that intelligence community (the FBI, NSA, CIA, DIA, et al) has expressed "high confidence" that the GRU was behind the hacking of the emails.

    But you're banging on about the incompetence and corruption of the DNC. I'm just not sure what the relevance of that is.

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  7. #3606
    if my thought dreams could be seen goldfly's Avatar
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    I really haven't figured out what way of life we are trying to protect by increasing military spending for no reason while cutting everything else?

    A society where you only work to pay for health insurance till you are put in the ground sounds far from great and doesn't sound like it's worth increasing the military budget to protect either.
    "If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin. It is a very great mistake to imagine that the object of loyalty is the authority and interest of one individual man, however dignified by the applause or enriched by the success of popular actions. Samuel Adams

    "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act" George Orwell

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    Quote Originally Posted by Julio3000 View Post

    But you're banging on about the incompetence and corruption of the DNC. I'm just not sure what the relevance of that it.
    Sigh.

    Because that is the information exposed!

    That is what is supposedly "influencing the election"

    The information was damning enough to "influence the election"

    So why don't we discuss the information?

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    Quote Originally Posted by goldfly View Post
    I really haven't figured out what way of life we are trying to protect by increasing military spending for no reason while cutting everything else?

    A society where you only work to pay for health insurance till you are put in the ground sounds far from great and doesn't sound like it's worth increasing the military budget to protect either.
    I agree. Would be nice to drastically cut the defense budget.

    Would have been nice during the Obama years. Good to have the anti-war libs back in the fold for 4-8 years.

  10. #3609
    Co-Owner, BravesCenter
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julio3000 View Post
    I've been pretty forthright about my belief that this investigation is likely to turn up nothing but smoke and circumstance. Still, it seems like whistling past the graveyard for sturg to say "BUT TEH EVIDENCE" when the relevant official is declining to comment about the evidence because of an ongoing investigation.

    Furthermore, it's conflating the issue of Trump campaign collusion with Russia and Russian interference in the election. There's a bipartisan consensus on the latter point among members who have been briefed, which is largely based on information which is still classified. It's pretty obtuse to deny that at this point.
    So your previous crowing about Manafort, Page, Flynn, etc. in relation to Russia should now be considered as what, exactly, in relationship to your beliefs about this investigation? From what I recall you have been aggressively pushing the Russo-Trump conspiratorial narrative since October, so it comes as a bit of a surprise that you are now quietly conceding that the brouhaha surrounding said figures is more or less tantamount to political tripe.

    In the meanwhile, you'll have to excuse me if Russian 'interference' not related to manipulating the vote count (which was expressly denied by Director of the NSA during the hearings today) doesn't exactly trigger much of a response, especially when the extent to which the 'interference' occurred is unknown (and, in all likelihood, menial).

  11. #3610
    Shift Leader thethe's Avatar
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    What are countries suppozed to pay us for our military protection? Is it profitable at all?

  12. #3611
    A Chip Off the Old Rock Julio3000's Avatar
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    So the NSA and FBI directors both just stated in testimony that:

    1. Russia sought to undermine confidence and legitimacy of the election.
    2. That they did so to hurt Sec Clinton and to
    3. Help Trump.

    And that means nothing to you, @sturg33 and @thethe ?

  13. #3612
    A Chip Off the Old Rock Julio3000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thethe View Post
    What are countries suppozed to pay us for our military protection? Is it profitable at all?
    Is that how it's supposed to work?

    We didn't make a profit rebuilding Europe after WWII. Does that mean it wasn't worth it?

  14. #3613
    Shift Leader thethe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julio3000 View Post
    Is that how it's supposed to work?

    We didn't make a profit rebuilding Europe after WWII. Does that mean it wasn't worth it?
    Didn't we make a lot on the Marshall plan?

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    A Chip Off the Old Rock Julio3000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    So your previous crowing about Manafort, Page, Flynn, etc. in relation to Russia should now be considered as what, exactly, in relationship to your beliefs about this investigation? From what I recall you have been aggressively pushing the Russo-Trump conspiratorial narrative since October, so it comes as a bit of a surprise that you are now quietly conceding that the brouhaha surrounding said figures is more or less tantamount to political tripe.

    In the meanwhile, you'll have to excuse me if Russian 'interference' not related to manipulating the vote count (which was expressly denied by Director of the NSA during the hearings today) doesn't exactly trigger much of a response, especially when the extent to which the 'interference' occurred is unknown (and, in all likelihood, menial).
    If you want to bring up my history posting about this, I'd bring up yours, which consistently pooh-poohed any connections at all between Trumpistas and Russia, and in fact Russian involvement in the election. You said more than once that the topic was exhausted. Seems like the confirmation of an ongoing investigation tends to deny that.

    I think I'm standing closer to the objectively factual state of play than you are.

    I've stated a skepticism that this investigation is going to find a smoking gun. It may or may not. I believed then and now that certain folks--Manafort, Page, Flynn, Stone,et al--have by their actions provided plenty of reasons to investigate. You disagree?

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    Shift Leader thethe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julio3000 View Post
    So the NSA and FBI directors both just stated in testimony that:

    1. Russia sought to undermine confidence and legitimacy of the election.
    2. That they did so to hurt Sec Clinton and to
    3. Help Trump.

    And that means nothing to you, @sturg33 and @thethe ?
    When have I ever said that Russia didn't do these things. I have always said it's far fetched to think it was a massive conspiracy. I think one can easily putt he dots toget her that Russia was involved. Even still I'd love to wee actual evidence as opposed to pronouncements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Julio3000 View Post
    So the NSA and FBI directors both just stated in testimony that:

    1. Russia sought to undermine confidence and legitimacy of the election.
    2. That they did so to hurt Sec Clinton and to
    3. Help Trump.

    And that means nothing to you, @sturg33 and @thethe ?
    Further...can't you substitute nbc and the NYT for 2 and 3 but the converse?

  18. #3617
    A Chip Off the Old Rock Julio3000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thethe View Post
    Further...can't you substitute nbc and the NYT for 2 and 3 but the converse?
    Um, I'm sure that the NYT editorial board preferred HRC. I imagine they endorsed her, huh?

    Why is this relevant to a foreign power committing illegal acts to support one candidate over another. Seriously, I don't get it.

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  20. #3618
    A Chip Off the Old Rock Julio3000's Avatar
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    Just FWIW, Comey has declined to comment on Flynn, Manafort, and Roger Stone.

    I imagine those guys are lawyered up pretty hard right now.

  21. #3619
    Shift Leader thethe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julio3000 View Post
    Um, I'm sure that the NYT editorial board preferred HRC. I imagine they endorsed her, huh?

    Why is this relevant to a foreign power committing illegal acts to support one candidate over another. Seriously, I don't get it.
    This concept of foreign power is to narrow minded if you ask me. There are global entities trying to sway influence. Russia is one. Massive media outlets are others. Large financial houses are examples of others. Do you think that NBC or the NYTs is better because they are "American". Don't don't care about america. They care about power. The same as russia.

  22. #3620
    Co-Owner, BravesCenter
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julio3000 View Post
    If you want to bring up my history posting about this, I'd bring up yours, which consistently pooh-poohed any connections at all between Trumpistas and Russia, and in fact Russian involvement in the election. You said more than once that the topic was exhausted. Seems like the confirmation of an ongoing investigation tends to deny that.

    I think I'm standing closer to the objectively factual state of play than you are.

    I've stated a skepticism that this investigation is going to find a smoking gun. It may or may not. I believed then and now that certain folks--Manafort, Page, Flynn, Stone,et al--have by their actions provided plenty of reasons to investigate. You disagree?
    This leads me back to my original comment: You are grasping - mightily and obviously - at straws.

    If Stone sending a DM to Guccifer 2.0, Flynn/Page corresponding with the Russian ambassador, or Manafort working for Viktor Yanukovych, individually or collectively constitutes the trappings of a criminal conspiratorial enterprise then our respective abilities to interpret 'objectively factual state[s] of play' could not be more different.

    Comey mentioned today that this investigation has been underway since July. If the FBI, NSA, or any one of the multitude of government agencies which have been tasked to explore this issue haven't been able to produce a smoking gun - or literally any other form of actionable intelligence/evidence - in the proceeding 9 months then I feel overwhelmingly comfortable saying that the topic indeed has been amply exhausted.

    This is, and has always been, a complete sham that is not altogether much different than the Birther Movement.
    Last edited by Hawk; 03-20-2017 at 11:34 AM.

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