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Thread: The Trump Presidency

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    easy big guy
    I have a hard time keeping up.
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    How could Obama's presidency be defended at all currently? The US is the leader of the world. I ciuld understand an argument that we shouldnt be anymore but the fact of the matter is that is what role we had the past 8 years. The world is significantly more unstable and dangerous.

    Simply put...the last 8 years were an utter diaster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 57Brave View Post
    Russia yes, Putin no

    A co operative Russia yes -- an expansive Russia no

    Russia , according to NSA and even Assange himself installed a puppet that owes his place to Russia. If that is all !!!
    That Russia no - a Russia that respects our borders (physical or virtual) --- yes

    We agree in principle, it is how we are getting there that is the rub.
    Fair enough.

    But what exactly gives us the right to dictate how a country (reasonably) defines its borders? I mean, the Crimean invasion was absurd from most logical perspectives - sure - but the Russian argument for laying claim to the territory is actually pretty compelling. It honestly reminds me more of Alsace-Lorraine to the Germans after WWI than the current Japanese/Korean spats over Dokdo, for example.

    Did Russia check us when we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan? No, but there was a hugely negative reaction on our part when they essentially took the same tact in Czechnya to address terrorist attacks.

    Hacking? I mean, does anybody remember the little darling called Stuxnet that we unleashed on Iran? I guess it was OK then because it was in our interests. But we're furious because the Russians exploited our inability to comprehend two-factor identification or resist millions of dollars from marooned Nigerian princes.

    My point is that there is a comically hypocritical and unfair double-standard at play when it comes to the average American's perception of what Russia is and what she does.

    Now, as you say, Putin is another story. But we've made him a legend in Russia. He 'stole' our election right? Trump is his puppet, right? Combine that mentality with triumphs in the Middle East and ... well, he ain't going anywhere soon unless he kicks the can.

    So what do you want the next four years to look like? A new Cold War or finally a group of individuals willing to work together to positively progress relations for both countries?

    The answer should be an easy one unless you are obsessed with the same half-baked conspiracy theories you chided the anti-Clinton folks for promoting over the past year.
    Last edited by Hawk; 12-30-2016 at 11:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thethe View Post
    How could Obama's presidency be defended at all currently? The US is the leader of the world. I ciuld understand an argument that we shouldnt be anymore but the fact of the matter is that is what role we had the past 8 years. The world is significantly more unstable and dangerous.

    Simply put...the last 8 years were an utter diaster.
    IF we can make it Obama's 8 AND W's 8 then I'll agree with you. I am no fan of Obama's presidency but I find it beyond reprehensible how Repubs have treated him since day 1. There are numerous errors and eff-ups that I could point to from the past 8 years but I really don't see the point to blasting the current president for his mistakes while at the same time justifying or overlooking the equally terrible 8 years before Obama became president.

    So, can we agree we've had 16 very sucky years in a row from the White House?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Fair enough.

    But what exactly gives us the right to dictate how a country (reasonably) defines as its borders? I mean, the Crimean invasion was absurd from most logical perspectives - sure - but the Russian argument for laying claim to the territory is actually pretty compelling. It honestly reminds me more of Alsace-Lorraine to the Germans after WWI than the current Japanese/Korean spats over Dokdo, for example.

    Did Russia check us when we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan? No, but there was a hugely negative reaction on our part when they essentially took the same tact in Czechnya to address terrorist attacks.

    Hacking? I mean, does anybody remember the little darling called Stuxnet that we unleashed on Iran? I guess it was OK then because it was in our interests. But we're furious because the Russians exploited our inability to comprehend two-factor identification or resist millions of dollars from marooned Nigerian princes.

    My point is that there is a comically hypocritical and unfair double-standard at play when it comes to the average American's perception of what Russia is and what she does.

    Now, as you say, Putin is another story. But we've made him a legend in Russia. He 'stole' our election right? Trump is his puppet, right? Combine that mentality with triumphs in the Middle East and ... well, he ain't going anywhere soon unless he kicks the can.

    So what do you want the next four years to look like? A new Cold War or finally a group of individuals willing to work together to positively progress relations for both countries?

    The answer should be an easy one unless you are obsessed with the same half-baked conspiracy theories you chided the anti-Clinton folks for promoting over the past year.
    So, my main question here is did the Russians hack emails in the US? Whether it be the Repubs or Dems I could care less, but can we afford to sign off on them doing something like this to ANY of us? Isn't this akin to, if not flat out espionage?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oklahomahawk View Post
    IF we can make it Obama's 8 AND W's 8 then I'll agree with you. I am no fan of Obama's presidency but I find it beyond reprehensible how Repubs have treated him since day 1. There are numerous errors and eff-ups that I could point to from the past 8 years but I really don't see the point to blasting the current president for his mistakes while at the same time justifying or overlooking the equally terrible 8 years before Obama became president.

    So, can we agree we've had 16 very sucky years in a row from the White House?

    You feel the same as how many are treating Trump from day one? Trump is getting far more **** from the American people than Obama ever did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oklahomahawk View Post
    So, my main question here is did the Russians hack emails in the US? Whether it be the Repubs or Dems I could care less, but can we afford to sign off on them doing something like this to ANY of us? Isn't this akin to, if not flat out espionage?
    Well, what's your definition of 'hacked'? When your wife guessed your email password did she 'hack' it?

    And I guess I would be more upset if the emails were any more revealing than messages about Chelsea Clinton being a bitch and Bill Clinton 'dicking bimbos'. Because we didn't know those things already.

    To classify this as espionage is pushing it way too far. I mean, dangerously and irresponsibly so. Now, could this debacle lead to that kind of behavior? Sure, and that's why we need to learn how to use passwords with letters, numbers, and symbols, and avoid phishing emails. We are in the stone age as a country when it comes to cyber security and general digital awareness.
    Last edited by Hawk; 12-30-2016 at 11:26 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oklahomahawk View Post
    IF we can make it Obama's 8 AND W's 8 then I'll agree with you. I am no fan of Obama's presidency but I find it beyond reprehensible how Repubs have treated him since day 1. There are numerous errors and eff-ups that I could point to from the past 8 years but I really don't see the point to blasting the current president for his mistakes while at the same time justifying or overlooking the equally terrible 8 years before Obama became president.

    So, can we agree we've had 16 very sucky years in a row from the White House?
    Not sure what this has to do with bush. I don't think dubya was a good president at all. Unfortunately we had arguably the worst president of all time follow a really bad one as well.

    The foreign policy for the last 8 years made zero sense and it's not just obama. It's all of the world leaders of his ilk in eurine that completely understtimated and dropped the ball on russia/China/Islamic terrorism.
    Warm feelings guy!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post

    To classify this as espionage is pushing it way too far. I mean, dangerously and irresponsibly so. Now, could this debacle lead to that kind of behavior? Sure, and that's why we need to learn how to use passwords with letters, numbers, and symbols, and avoid phishing emails. We are in the stone age as a country when it comes to cyber security and general digital awareness.
    The report did not name hacked organizations or address previous conclusions reached by the Central Intelligence Agency and FBI, according to U.S. officials, that Russia sought to intervene in the election to help Trump defeat Clinton.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-us...source=Twitter
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    I would take Obama over Bush.
    "Let it not be said that no one cared, that no one objected once its realized that our liberty and wealth are in jeopardy"

    - Crazy Uncle Ron.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Well, what's your definition of 'hacked'? When your wife guessed your email password did she 'hack' it?

    And I guess I would be more upset if the emails were any more revealing than messages about Chelsea Clinton being a bitch and Bill Clinton 'dicking bimbos'. Because we didn't know those things already.

    To classify this as espionage is pushing it way too far. I mean, dangerously and irresponsibly so. Now, could this debacle lead to that kind of behavior? Sure, and that's why we need to learn how to use passwords with letters, numbers, and symbols, and avoid phishing emails. We are in the stone age as a country when it comes to cyber security and general digital awareness.
    Hey, I tried to warn Hilldog that "Billisahorndog" was a bad choice for an important password. On the espionage point I agree this wasn't nearly as big a deal as hacking (or password guessing) a nuclear launch code or anything, but surely you aren't suggesting that this isn't an extremely slippery slope, to say the least. At what point does it become espionage? Shouldn't this be one of those times we say, "Oh hell no" right at the beginning?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thethe View Post
    Not sure what this has to do with bush. I don't think dubya was a good president at all. Unfortunately we had arguably the worst president of all time follow a really bad one as well.

    The foreign policy for the last 8 years made zero sense and it's not just obama. It's all of the world leaders of his ilk in eurine that completely understtimated and dropped the ball on russia/China/Islamic terrorism.
    So, basically you agree with me? Sucky followed by more sucky. Are we at least in some form of agreement on this?


    EDIT: Oh and what it has to do with bush is pretty simple. I don't recall you blasting bush anywhere near as much as you have/do Obama. So if you want to be a partisan that's fine but if you want to be an objective observer whose opinion matters no matter who it's about then yes, IMO it does matter. It's totally your call though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oklahomahawk View Post
    So, basically you agree with me? Sucky followed by more sucky. Are we at least in some form of agreement on this?


    EDIT: Oh and what it has to do with bush is pretty simple. I don't recall you blasting bush anywhere near as much as you have/do Obama. So if you want to be a partisan that's fine but if you want to be an objective observer whose opinion matters no matter who it's about then yes, IMO it does matter. It's totally your call though.
    8 years ago I was more liberal both economically and socially. I voted for Obama (embarrassed for it) in 2008. I assure you I jumped in on all the bush bashing.

    Would I have felt that way with my political leanings now? Not sure what the answer to that question is.
    Warm feelings guy!

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    MOSCOW (The Borowitz Report)—Capping an extraordinary year for the former television host, the Kremlin has named Donald J. Trump its Employee of the Month for December.

    “No one has worked more tirelessly for the glory of the Fatherland than Donald Trump,” the Russian President Vladimir Putin said in an official statement. “He has set a high bar for all Kremlin employees, and for that, we salute him.”

    To mark the honor, Trump’s name will be added to a plaque that hangs in the hallway outside the Kremlin’s H.R. office.

    According to Kremlin sources, Trump faced tough competition in the Employee of the Month voting, besting both Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and ExxonMobil’s C.E.O., Rex Tillerson.

    Speaking to reporters at his Mar-a-Lago estate, in Florida, Trump called the award “a tremendous honor, just tremendous.”

    “Obama was President for eight years and he didn’t win this a single month,” he said. “Loser.”
    I have a hard time keeping up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thethe View Post
    8 years ago I was more liberal both economically and socially. I voted for Obama (embarrassed for it) in 2008. I assure you I jumped in on all the bush bashing.

    Would I have felt that way with my political leanings now? Not sure what the answer to that question is.
    Fair enough. So, what are your expectations for the president-elect, preferably with some specifics?

    By the way, why (if you don't mind my asking) do you consider yourself so much more conservative now, as opposed to then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krgrecw View Post
    You feel the same as how many are treating Trump from day one? Trump is getting far more **** from the American people than Obama ever did.
    Trump has certainly got a LOT of crap, especially to not even be president yet, I certainly won't argue that. Some of this has been deserved, based on things he's said and done, but more than a little of it has been "sour grapes" from the Dems based on the fact that he and his followers got out the vote whereas Hilldog and her followers didn't. I'm not happy about any Russian involvement in our election, period, but that isn't what lost it for her and won it for him, all one has to do is look at the vote totals for her in this election vs the vote totals for Obama 4 years ago. a LOT of Dems just stayed home and this is what lost it for her. Zeet pointed that out like the next day after the election. I don't think his opponents realize (even now) that bogging things down into a poop throwing contest is right in his wheel house.

    But what about the future? If Trump does what I hope (get the economy going for every American who cares about succeeding, not just the top 10%) then he'll be re-elected in 4 years easily, but if he does what I expect (giving free reign to the top 1%, the financial institutions, major corporations, etc.) cutting funding for social programs, and so on and IF the Dems give us a decent candidate in 2020 Trump might set the Repubs back 15-20 years. You're a sports fan right? When one team is winning over what might be considered a better (in this case more populous) team the last thing they need to do is to wake up that "sleeping giant". Trump can either be a great president or join what most of us think about the last two presidents, maybe even worse. Only time will tell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oklahomahawk View Post
    IF we can make it Obama's 8 AND W's 8 then I'll agree with you. I am no fan of Obama's presidency but I find it beyond reprehensible how Repubs have treated him since day 1. There are numerous errors and eff-ups that I could point to from the past 8 years but I really don't see the point to blasting the current president for his mistakes while at the same time justifying or overlooking the equally terrible 8 years before Obama became president.

    So, can we agree we've had 16 very sucky years in a row from the White House?
    Without question. Worse 16 years of this countries life in the modern era.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oklahomahawk View Post
    Fair enough. So, what are your expectations for the president-elect, preferably with some specifics?

    By the way, why (if you don't mind my asking) do you consider yourself so much more conservative now, as opposed to then?
    As long as the following items are addressed, specifically 1/2/3, I will consider my support and vote well worth it:

    1) Stronger stance against Islamic Terrorism - We all know how I feel on the matter. The West is incredibly naive what this threat is not only in the present but even moreso in the future. The route we heading to under Obama was simply not acceptable. This is a LARGE group, yes a large one despite what the skeptics say, that just want Western Civilization to crumble. We need to vigilant, assertive and show more resolve in order to push the enemy back. Obama has been an utter disaster of a President and specifically his foreign policy. He will go down in infamy for the rest of time when he called ISIS the JV team. What this administration just did to Israel is a disgrace. Nobody knows the threat and the evil that is Radical Islam better than Israel. And now there are reports that the US orchestrated this whole vote but then abstained. Sounds right up Obamas alley. Its a joke what has happened under his watch and every single American citizen should be cursing Obama for what mess he has left the next generation.

    2) Create an environment that encourages AMERICAN business to grow domestically - I'm sick of the outsourcing. This isn't a selfish sentiment either as I am fortunate enough where I'm in a profession which hasn't suffered all that much outsourcing. However, we need jobs back (even menial ones) for American citizens. If that means a 25k per year customer service position out in Wyoming then great. That 25k is better here than it is in India. Once the corporate tax rate is lowered to 15% (probably the very first thing Trump does) these jobs will come back. It also will be a nice advertising ploy for these companies as the world sentiment is against globalization. 'Buy here - we hire Americans!' I am a top-down guy and believe that only through these tactics will real wealth be back in America. I don't care for the globalists in this world that take money from the middle class and put them in their pockets.

    3) Secure our borders / Toughen up on Immigration - This goes a lot with point 1 because I think its a national security risk. Sure, I wouldn't mind seeing some illegal Mexicans/Salvadorians/etc... get shipped back home but the intelligence has already specified that Islamic Groups are using our sourthern border to infiltrate our country. It needs to be locked up ASAP and give power to the border agents to do their job. There are many stories that have surfaced in the last 6 months about men who have been repeatedly deported for crimes and are never processed correctly and stay in the country. This is outrageous. A country is defined by its borders and there is nothing racist/xenophobic/Islamaphobic/etc.. about it. I will say that I worry about what deporting too many Hispanics fromt he country will do. OVerwhelming majority are productive and help the rest of the country. I think whats going to end up happening is the following: a) Violent criminals are deported b) Wall will be built c) Amnesty talks will start on existing illegals in the country (and I think that isn't necessarily a bad thing).

    4) Infrastructure Plan - Let's spend some money on getting our country up to date with modern building techniques. A good way to get Americans back to work hopefully and maybe Trump could actually help cut waste doing such a large project where he is familiar with a lot of the players and plays.

    5) Radically change the education system - Our schools are a disaster. This is another factor that leads to the racial/economic divide in this country. Majority of bad schools, at least here in NY, are in minority areas. That severely disadvantages them when they get into the working world. My preference is to privatize all education but that endeavor is just too difficult to accomplish. For now I would be happy with letting local jurisdictions (even more granular than the state level) decide how the youth will be educated. Of course oversight will be required to ensure that minimum standards are being used as a guideline. Most importantly though we need to hold students/parents/administrations accountable. Too much is laid on the feet of our teachers. Their jobs are incredibly difficult and are given no support to properly discipline their students.

    6) Social Justice needs to be scaled back - Do I need to say more? Enough of transgender bathrooms.

    I'm sure I missed some but these are some of the things I'm looking to get done the next 4 and hopefully 8 years.
    Last edited by thethe; 12-31-2016 at 04:17 PM.
    Warm feelings guy!

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    Regarding changing my political/economic views? Well, I guess I can say that I came from very little (I'm sure many in this country were poorer than me growing up) and now I have what I need to enjoy my life. Nobody ever got me a job. I had to work full-time when I was 24-26 and go to school full time to get another degree after I realized that education was just simply not the right route for me. And I did those things despite how difficult and inconvenient they are. I 100% believe that anyone can escape poverty. Those that remain there are those that don't care enough to leave - or maybe are just incentivized to stay poor but thats another story.

    I used to consider myself socially liberal but I don't even know what that means anymore. I have always been behind gay marriage and equal protection under the law for law abiding citizens. But now being socially liberal means something else and it disgusts me.
    Warm feelings guy!

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    Quote Originally Posted by thethe View Post
    As long as the following items are addressed, specifically 1/2/3, I will consider my support and vote well worth it:

    1) Stronger stance against Islamic Terrorism - We all know how I feel on the matter. The West is incredibly naive what this threat is not only in the present but even moreso in the future. The route we heading to under Obama was simply not acceptable. This is a LARGE group, yes a large one despite what the skeptics say, that just want Western Civilization to crumble. We need to vigilant, assertive and show more resolve in order to push the enemy back.

    2) Create an environment that encourages AMERICAN business to grow domestically - I'm sick of the outsourcing. This isn't a selfish sentiment either as I am fortunate enough where I'm in a profession which hasn't suffered all that much outsourcing. However, we need jobs back (even menial ones) for American citizens. If that means a 25k per year customer service position out in Wyoming then great. That 25k is better here than it is in India. Once the corporate tax rate is lowered to 15% (probably the very first thing Trump does) these jobs will come back. It also will be a nice advertising ploy for these companies as the world sentiment is against globalization. 'Buy here - we hire Americans!' I am a top-down guy and believe that only through these tactics will real wealth be back in America. I don't care for the globalists in this world that take money from the middle class and put them in their pockets.

    3) Secure our borders / Toughen up on Immigration - This goes a lot with point 1 because I think its a national security risk. Sure, I wouldn't mind seeing some illegal Mexicans/Salvadorians/etc... get shipped back home but the intelligence has already specified that Islamic Groups are using our sourthern border to infiltrate our country. It needs to be locked up ASAP and give power to the border agents to do their job. There are many stories that have surfaced in the last 6 months about men who have been repeatedly deported for crimes and are never processed correctly and stay in the country. This is outrageous. A country is defined by its borders and there is nothing racist/xenophobic/Islamaphobic/etc.. about it. I will say that I worry about what deporting too many Hispanics fromt he country will do. OVerwhelming majority are productive and help the rest of the country. I think whats going to end up happening is the following: a) Violent criminals are deported b) Wall will be built c) Amnesty talks will start on existing illegals in the country (and I think that isn't necessarily a bad thing).

    4) Infrastructure Plan - Let's spend some money on getting our country up to date with modern building techniques. A good way to get Americans back to work hopefully and maybe Trump could actually help cut waste doing such a large project where he is familiar with a lot of the players and plays.

    5) Radically change the education system - Our schools are a disaster. This is another factor that leads to the racial/economic divide in this country. Majority of bad schools, at least here in NY, are in minority areas. That severely disadvantages them when they get into the working world. My preference is to privatize all education but that endeavor is just too difficult to accomplish. For now I would be happy with letting local jurisdictions (even more granular than the state level) decide how the youth will be educated. Of course oversight will be required to ensure that minimum standards are being used as a guideline. Most importantly though we need to hold students/parents/administrations accountable. Too much is laid on the feet of our teachers. Their jobs are incredibly difficult and are given no support to properly discipline their students.

    6) Social Justice needs to be scaled back - Do I need to say more? Enough of transgender bathrooms.

    I'm sure I missed some but these are some of the things I'm looking to get done the next 4 and hopefully 8 years.
    Is #6 for real (I'm serious)? I can't tell if you're joking or not. I think my sarcasm app is offline.

    Anyway, would enjoy #1 and #5. I can see #1 happening, though I'm worried it'll happen on a level that is downright scary (registering and such). Kaine playing a role was our best chance at #5.

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