The Trump Presidency

[thethe]

Dude: “DACA-age illegals” is definitionally distinct from “DACA recipients”. What part of that are you not getting?

I know exactly what it means. I also have no faith in the prior administration actually upholding their regulations against DACA and will be supported by activist judges. So I'm using data from a relatively homogeneous population to make a determination. When the DACA recipients are reviewed I think we will find out the shocking truth that they are not all what has been made out to be.

[sturg33]

JPX, I'd like you to outline your "ideal" financial situation... because you basically deny all accusations but never set the record straight.

And while you're at it, I'd love to see some examples of capitalist governments killing their own people by the hundreds of millions.

[jpx7]

I'd defend myself, but I'm more interested in reading you squirm your way out from under your double-down (I mean, you did go for the crescendo).

No squirming necessary. You can go all Robin Thicke on me—and I’m always willing to talk about how meaning exists on a relatively malleable continuum—but I’m hardly stating “outright falsehoods” (the definition of outright seemingly something with which you’re struggling recently).

[jpx7]

I know exactly what it means. I also have no faith in the prior administration actually upholding their regulations against DACA and will be supported by activist judges. So I'm using data from a relatively homogeneous population to make a determination. When the DACA recipients are reviewed I think we will find out the shocking truth that they are not all what has been made out to be.

Got it: pulling **** out of your ass. I know “nativist” has been expunged from Hawk’s Proper Lexicon, so I’ll leave it at “definitionally inaccurate numbers thrown out in service of a slow, wet fart of an argument”.

[thethe]

Chomsky has a good essay (“Counting the Bodies”) that looks into this question, with a particular focus on India’s and China’s facility in dealing with generational. But I’d say the history and death toll associated with the oil industry’s regime in Nigeria is a very instructive window into the way in which small capitalist oligarchies, constituted by the conditions of global capitalism, kill scores of their own peoples in the name of profit.

While I hate to argue against a fellow Askenazi (afterall we are statistically the smartest people in the world!) a stateless society is a fantasy that would never work in the real world so its hard for me to give merit to his other beliefs. HOwever, as he is far more accomplished than I will ever be I would be interested in knowing more about this thoughts.

It sounds to me that you are conflating a capitalistic style government that has brought more freedom to world than any other system in mankind with a group of evil elites (which of course I'm with you on a grouping of people ruling the world).

[thethe]

Got it: pulling **** out of your ass. I know “nativist” has been expunged from Hawk’s Proper Lexicon, so I’ll leave it at “definitionally inaccurate numbers thrown out in service of a slow, wet fart of an argument”.

That is statistical analysis. What makes DACA recipients different than the rest of the population of their home countries?

[mqt]

I know exactly what it means. I also have no faith in the prior administration actually upholding their regulations against DACA and will be supported by activist judges. So I'm using data from a relatively homogeneous population to make a determination. When the DACA recipients are reviewed I think we will find out the shocking truth that they are not all what has been made out to be.

I'm not trying to say it's impossible that someone was able to defraud the government to get into the program, but it would be a weird decision for the person doing so. You're basically inviting the US Government to track you, which seems like an interesting thing for a felon to do.

[goldfly]

a capitalist gov't committed genocide against the natives and enslaved a whole race of people while talking about all people being created equal

[jpx7]

JPX, I'd like you to outline your "ideal" financial situation... because you basically deny all accusations but never set the record straight.

And while you're at it, I'd love to see some examples of capitalist governments killing their own people by the hundreds of millions.

I actually have been through a rough, workable “ideal” with you before, so I’m not sure why I need to “set the record straight”.

As for the “while I’m at it”: the goal-post is 100 million, not “hundreds of millions” (presumably drawn from that Black Book of Communism finding, a lot of which includes poor responses to famine). Capitalist plunder-governments can (sadly) easily reach that mark

[thethe]

I'm not trying to say it's impossible that someone was able to defraud the government to get into the program, but it would be a weird decision for the person doing so. You're basically inviting the US Government to track you, which seems like an interesting thing for a felon to do.

But it was very clear that once DACA was instituted that it was going to be more likely to get citizenship than a blanket amnesty. Being an American is like winning the lottery for most of the world and you'll do a whole lot to get that.

[Hawk]

No squirming necessary. You can go all Robin Thicke on me—and I’m always willing to talk about how meaning exists on a relatively malleable continuum—but I’m hardly stating “outright falsehoods” (the definition of outright seemingly something with which you’re struggling recently).

By "relatively malleable" you mean that you shape the discourse as you see fit using sleight of hand and technicality.

You took the bait on the communism thing, and you might have had a convincing case to actually make until you tossed in the 18th and 19th century for (pure) theatrics.

[mqt]

But it was very clear that once DACA was instituted that it was going to be more likely to get citizenship than a blanket amnesty. Being an American is like winning the lottery for most of the world and you'll do a whole lot to get that.

But again, you'd have to be able to avoid being caught having lied about your qualifications, then continue to meet the criteria when in the program. That doesn't sound like a favorable option to just riding it out and hoping for amnesty if you're a felon.

[Hawk]

Got it: pulling **** out of your ass. I know “nativist” has been expunged from Hawk’s Proper Lexicon, so I’ll leave it at “definitionally inaccurate numbers thrown out in service of a slow, wet fart of an argument”.

I have no problem with people using "nativist" outside of the realm of pejorative, lazy potshots.

[sturg33]

I actually have been through a rough, workable “ideal” with you before, so I’m not sure why I need to “set the record straight”.

As for the “while I’m at it”: the goal-post is 100 million, not “hundreds of millions” (presumably drawn from that Black Book of Communism finding, a lot of which includes poor responses to famine). Capitalist plunder-governments can (sadly) easily reach that mark

You managed to answer neither question

[thethe]

I actually have been through a rough, workable “ideal” with you before, so I’m not sure why I need to “set the record straight”.

As for the “while I’m at it”: the goal-post is 100 million, not “hundreds of millions” (presumably drawn from that Black Book of Communism finding, a lot of which includes poor responses to famine). Capitalist plunder-governments can (sadly) easily reach that mark

Again - You are conflating the actions of the elite with actual capitalism that we have in America. Comparing that to what we saw in the USSR and Mao's China shows that the power given to the state is what killed people.

[Hawk]

While I hate to argue against a fellow Ashkenazi

You are Jewish?

[thethe]

Why is nativism a 'bad' word? Those of us who hold these beliefs are more against unfettered illegal immigration because they drive down wages and welcome crime to our great country. If you want to let 1 million people into the country each year based strictly on merits I'd be all for it.

[thethe]

You are Jewish?

Not a practicing one. But I was Bar-Mitvahd and all. I might add I have a wonderful voice!

[jpx7]

It sounds to me that you are conflating a capitalistic style government that has brought more freedom to world than any other system in mankind with a group of evil elites (which of course I'm with you on a grouping of people ruling the world).

That conflation cuts every way, though: we're always going to be evaluating decisions of level-pullers in a system, because we can't evaluate the results of pure system. So that conflation is necessary.

Moreover, I am arguing that "a group of elites" (evil or otherwise, but probably evil) is a feature, not a bug, of capitalism. I'd rather a system where concentrating wealth to groups of elites is a bug to be correct, if present at all, and not a fundamental feature.

[thethe]

That conflation cuts every way, though: we're always going to be evaluating decisions of level-pullers in a system, because we can't evaluate the results of pure system. So that conflation is necessary.

Moreover, I am arguing that "a group of elites" (evil or otherwise, but probably evil) is a feature, not a bug, of capitalism. I'd rather a system where concentrating wealth to groups of elites is a bug to be correct, if present at all, and not a fundamental feature.

The collection of elites will always exist. I wish it weren't the case but that is the reality of the world we live in. Not coincidentally this is the reason why I love the show 'Mr Robot' so much. If you haven't seen it I'd advise watching it. I think it would line up with your ideology well.

What we do know is that when a government embraces communism the murder of countless of its own people follow. That is absolutely not the case with capitalism.