The Trump Presidency

[57Brave]

“As [Mussolini] was consolidating his power, he said, ‘if you pluck a chicken one feather at a time, nobody notices.'…I have been concerned about the feather-plucking that is going on in the US."
—@Madeleine Albright

[sturg33]

I would have them stand their ground and not engage. Any serious military man would do the same. Kid throwing rocks??? Are you for real???

Well I'm not a military man, but it seems to me if a group of hundreds of people are intentionally trying to break the law by entering the country illegal, and are using force in order to do so, then it's reasonable to deter that action with non-lethal force.

Just like they did in 2013 when nobody cared since it was under the amazing Obama

The way I see it, we have 3 options for border control.

1. Prevent their entry with force
2. Allow them full access without impediment
3. Give them a bureaucratic process to follow to attempt entry

Am i missing one? These immigrants are choosing not to do #3, so that leaves option #1 and #2. Which do you want us to do?

[57Brave]

what does Obama have to do with this ?

and where by chance did you come across this history ?

[Julio3000]

They were getting rocks and bottles thrown at them.

I'll ask again... Maybe you'll answer, what should have happened today on 11/25 when the caravan crowd rushed the border and used rocks to attack agents?

So a small handful of guys are hucking rocks. Totally fine to tear-gas women and children, then. Your bootlicking here seems really at odds with your ideals.

Show of hands: anyone here ever get a lungful of CS/teargas?

[sturg33]

So a small handful of guys are hucking rocks. Totally fine to tear-gas women and children, then. Your bootlicking here seems really at odds with your ideals.

Show of hands: anyone here ever get a lungful of CS/teargas?

Raises hand. Back in college in 2010. Not pleasant.

I don't want anyone hurt. I'm a proponent of letting folks into the country. But I also am capable of not being hysterical about literally everything.

Can you answer my direct question to you now?

[Runnin]

Well I'm not a military man, but it seems to me if a group of hundreds of people are intentionally trying to break the law by entering the country illegal, and are using force in order to do so, then it's reasonable to deter that action with non-lethal force.

Just like they did in 2013 when nobody cared since it was under the amazing Obama

The way I see it, we have 3 options for border control.

1. Prevent their entry with force
2. Allow them full access without impediment
3. Give them a bureaucratic process to follow to attempt entry

Am i missing one? These immigrants are choosing not to do #3, so that leaves option #1 and #2. Which do you want us to do?

I don't recall Obama making this a big issue or him saying that people throwing rocks should be fired upon with guns.

[57Brave]

Well I'm not a military man, but it seems to me if a group of hundreds of people are intentionally trying to break the law by entering the country illegal, and are using force in order to do so, then it's reasonable to deter that action with non-lethal force.

Just like they did in 2013 when nobody cared since it was under the amazing Obama

The way I see it, we have 3 options for border control.

1. Prevent their entry with force
2. Allow them full access without impediment
3. Give them a bureaucratic process to follow to attempt entry

Am i missing one? These immigrants are choosing not to do #3, so that leaves option #1 and #2. Which do you want us to do?

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
‏Verified account @Ocasio2018
2h2 hours ago

What if instead of sending 5k troops to the border,

we had sent 5k caseworkers to review + process visa applications?

In addition to averting moral crisis,

it also would‘ve saved enormous amt of resources.

But we don’t talk about the financial recklessness of GOP admins,

do we?

WWGD ?

[sturg33]

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
‏Verified account @Ocasio2018
2h2 hours ago

What if instead of sending 5k troops to the border,

we had sent 5k caseworkers to review + process visa applications?

In addition to averting moral crisis,

it also would‘ve saved enormous amt of resources.

But we don’t talk about the financial recklessness of GOP admins,

do we?

WWGD ?

I'm all for completely overhauling our Visa and citizenship process.

But my question still remains and is still unanswered... On November 25th, what should the agents do to stop a crowd rushing the border?

Running said "stand down"... Which I'm not sure what he means so feel free to elaborate

[57Brave]

are you blaming the troops ?

let me rephrase --- are you laying the responsibility for gassing women and children on the enlisted rather than those giving the orders ?
There is that old Italian adage "a fish rots from the head down"
But you insist on rooting for the head -- strange boy you are

[sturg33]

I have no idea what you are asking.

I'm not blaming anyone. I'm asking what they should have done instead at the moment.

Obviously the order cam from the top, just like it did in 2013 from Obama. Weird that nobody cared then, only now.

I'll ask again, if the migrants don't care to go through the legal process, we have two options.

1. Stop them at the border with force if necey

2. Let them in undeterred.

Which option do you want?

[57Brave]

They follow orders, that is what military people do
That is why it was so important not allowing Trump to give orders.

But hey, she was "Crooked Hilary" so ...
Oh that is right, Libertarian and all that
and you did have a point didnt you ? even if it has gotten lost in tax cuts and deregulation

I guess we all know what you would do, right ?
Vote for Gary Johnson
So in a round about way, no a direct line, you gave a nod to giving the lethal force order --- right?

As far as Obama, please show where he pounded his chest on how he was going to beat back the migrant horde ---

[cajunrevenge]

Russia seized 3 Ukranian Navy ships. Now we get to see Trump run scared like the limp wristed coward that he is. Democrats will once again fail to capitalize on this. Trump would be ****ting all over "weak" Obama if this happened under his watch. Democrats should be blitzing media calling Trump weak, a coward, and Putins bitch. There will be fake outrage by foxnews if Democrats did it, but the people who are butt hurt about it arent voting for Democrats anyways.

[Julio3000]

I'm all for completely overhauling our Visa and citizenship process.

But my question still remains and is still unanswered... On November 25th, what should the agents do to stop a crowd rushing the border?

Running said "stand down"... Which I'm not sure what he means so feel free to elaborate

Per CBP, they apprehended several dozen people who crossed the border illegally. I guess that’s what they’re there to do. I’m not sure if a large cadre of agents behind barriers and concertina wire, with tactical vests, helmets w/faceshields, etc, really needs to deploy CS to protect themselves. Perhaps it was consistent with standards, but I don’t think it’s out-of-bounds to question the necessity of it.

As for the 2013 incident, you can read contemporaneous news accounts of it. About 100 migrants approached a single guard, who fired pepper balls in response. I doubt he called Obama to clear it. After the agent was reinforced, other agents used unspecified “less-than-lethal” methods to disperse the crowd. Considering the context of this recent incident and the presidential rhetoric surrounding it, I don’t think your hypocrisy argument holds a lot of water.

[goldfly]

the president showed support for an actual state news channel today

[sturg33]

Per CBP, they apprehended several dozen people who crossed the border illegally. I guess that’s what they’re there to do. I’m not sure if a large cadre of agents behind barriers and concertina wire, with tactical vests, helmets w/faceshields, etc, really needs to deploy CS to protect themselves.

They also said that several people got through as they overwhelmed the agents:

Another statement from the CBP



It appears to me they did the best they could while trying to keep people from getting in the country without physically harming anyone. Do you disagree? And if so, what is your proposed alternative?

Additionally, non-hysterical accounts on the ground dispute the notion of "women and children seeking asylum"

Among the group rushing the border, the majority of them were young men

As for the 2013 incident, you can read contemporaneous news accounts of it. About 100 migrants approached a single guard, who fired pepper balls in response. I doubt he called Obama to clear it. After the agent was reinforced, other agents used unspecified “less-than-lethal” methods to disperse the crowd.

OK... well pepper spray is "less than lethal"

And this was the DHS policy under Obama... you could have spent 5 seconds doing the research.

From the article:

The same tear gas agent that the Trump administration is taking heat for deploying against a border mob this weekend is actually used fairly frequently — including more than once a month during some years under President Obama, according to Homeland Security data.

U.S. Customs and Border Protection has used 2-chlorobenzylidene malononitrile, or CS, since 2010, and deployed it 26 times in 2012 and 27 times in 2013. The use dropped after that, but was still deployed three times in 2016, Mr. Obama’s final full year in office.

Use of CS rose again in 2017, which was split between Mr. Obama and Mr. Trump, and reached 29 deployments in fiscal year 2018, which ended two months ago, according to CBP data seen by The Washington Times.

Border authorities also use another agent, pepper spray, frequently — including a decade-high record of 151 instances in 2013, also under Mr. Obama. Pepper spray, officially known as Pava Capsaicin, was used 43 times in fiscal year 2018, according to the CBP numbers.

Here's another article from 2014 detailing it:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...force/5520197/

I don’t think your hypocrisy argument holds a lot of water.

Of course you don't think it does. I can always rest easy knowing that you will always be certain it's different when pointing out your hypocrisy.

And to be clear, pointing out that the things the left is hysterically screeching about now have been happening for years and you didn't give a **** is not whataboutism

It is about what is the policy of our govt been? What has been the acceptable practices??

The reality is this was an acceptable practice in this exact situation.

Is it the right policy? I don't know... but your cries of inhumanity once again ring hollow when you didn't give a **** about it under the previous president (or more likely you had no idea about it because our media didn't bother to inform us)

I'll ask you yet again...

If the migrants refuse to go through legal entry process, we can either stop them by force or let them in undeterred... which do you prefer to happen?

[57Brave]

you are actually going to lengths to justify tear gassing women and children.

There is a saying in woodworking.
< you have to be smarter than the wood>

A good place to start is if there was a less than acceptable result in the past, don't let it happen again

[cajunrevenge]

What about dat equality. Perfectly fine to tear gas men but not women....

[cajunrevenge]

Listened to Trumps Miss rally. They cheered everything he said no matter how ridiculous except when he talked about visiting the African American Museum. About 2 people cheer and everyone else goes silent.

[Jaw]

you are actually going to lengths to justify tear gassing women and children.

Actually he went to great lengths to point out the hypocrisy of the media, multiple posters on this board, and the political Left in general.

He did this by citing statistics and multiple news sources, and it was thoroughly and artfully done.

Instead of additional attempts at changing the subject, it would be productive for one of you to explain why, besides political hypocrisy, you all are complaining about this now but did not complain about when "The Standard" (your words) was the guy in charge.

You can let us know if you need to consult your Twitter feed or DailyKos to learn your opinion before answering.

[57Brave]

ah, "the hypocrisy"
Have to agree with Julio, these are two very very different situations


" As for the 2013 incident, you can read contemporaneous news accounts of it. About 100 migrants approached a single guard, who fired pepper balls in response. I doubt he called Obama to clear it. After the agent was reinforced, other agents used unspecified “less-than-lethal” methods to disperse the crowd. Considering the context of this recent incident and the presidential rhetoric surrounding it, I don’t think your hypocrisy argument holds a lot of water. "


Our government is teargassing unarmed people at ( across) the Mexican border and you are worried about " the hypocrisy "
sheeeesh

perhaps the next time you feel the need to share scripture or pontificate on Christian values (New Testament) we can include the nature of hypocrisy
Whatcha think ?

I saw that on twitter, so it isn't really what I think.
But I am sure Daily Kos feels the same
But I don't know