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Thread: The Trump Presidency

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    A Chip Off the Old Rock Julio3000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    So are you trying to tell me that you believe the relationship Putin enjoys with his titans of industry is materially different than the relationship the American president enjoys with our own kingmakers?
    Absolutely. Unequivocally. I'd be genuinely flabbergasted if you disagreed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Julio3000 View Post
    Absolutely. Unequivocally. I'd be genuinely flabbergasted if you disagreed.
    Well, I disagree.

    Completely and entirely.

    Just because the distribution of wealth in America is significantly different than in Russia doesn't necessarily mean that the same dynamics aren't at play in terms of who wields the greatest share of power in the sphere of political influence.

    Russians call it oligarchy, the Koreans call it chaebol, the Japanese called it keiretsu ... it's something that we've seen happen in rapidly 're-developing' economies.

    It's not a system of government, it's a point where the political economy and actual economy cross borders.

    You are too trusting if you don't believe the same variety of mutual curtsying exists here. Maybe it's hyper-advanced in America, but it still exists.
    Last edited by Hawk; 03-22-2017 at 11:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Well, I disagree.

    Completely and entirely.

    Just because the distribution of wealth in America is significantly different than in Russia doesn't necessarily mean that the same dynamics aren't at play in terms of who wields the greatest share of power in the sphere of political influence.

    Russians call it oligarchy, the Koreans call it chaebol, the Japanese called it keiretsu ... it's something that we've seen happen in rapidly 're-developing' economies.

    It's not a system of government, it's a point where the political economy and actual economy cross borders.

    You are too trusting if you don't believe the same variety of mutual curtsying exists here. Maybe it's hyper-advanced in America, but it still exists.
    That our current political state of play depends largely on the good graces of the hyper-monied elite is not something I'd take issue with.

    That the relationship is directly analogous to Russia is not.

    Trump's not going to jail Tom Steyer. Obama didn't put David Koch in a cage for a show trial and then exile him. We may be more in the thrall of the Mercers, Koches, Adelsons, Steyers, and Soroses than we'd like, but we're not an autocracy enforced by the state security services.

    Whatever the wheezing weaknesses of our status quo, we still have a functioning party system with free and fair elections, an independent judiciary, and a free press that reflects a diversity of opinion.

    Those things don't exist in Putin's Russia. Russian "oligarchs" today exist at the sufferance of the guy at the top. They are free to get richer and wield their power and influence only to the extent that it doesn't threaten Putin. Witness Prokhorov, Khodorkovsky, et. al. Witness Gusinsky and Berezovsky. Play ball and stay rich. Wander off the reservation and face the consequences.

    One guy has been in power in Russia for 16 years. The oligarchs that play ball with him are fat and happy. The ones that don't are dispossessed, dead, or living overseas. The new crop of elites are joined at the hip to Putin. The old ones kiss the ring or pay the price. Is this something you'd dispute?

    What oligarchs in Russia are anti-Putin?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thethe View Post
    Your guy that sells bud to put his kid through school is making a willful decision to break a law that has strict penalities. Why should I feel bad for them? They are asessin risk and reward. If there was no penalty it wouldn't be worth it to sell it.

    Because the federal government has no constitutional basis to prohibit drugs?



    Let me ask you this, since your a police officer, is it legal to hold someone for 7 days with no probable cause, no chance to see a judge or make a phone call, without charging them with a crime, in a cell with only a metal bed with no padding and no toilet? How about locking a man in a scalding hot shower until he is literally boiled alive? Is that legal?
    "Donald Trump will serve a second term as president of the United States.

    It’s over."


    Little Thethe Nov 19, 2020.

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    A Chip Off the Old Rock Julio3000's Avatar
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    "We are now of the belief that this model can greatly benefit the Putin Government if employed at the correct levels with the appropriate commitment to success," Manafort wrote in the 2005 memo to Deripaska. The effort, Manafort wrote, "will be offering a great service that can re-focus, both internally and externally, the policies of the Putin government."

    But working for Deripaska =/= working or Putin.

    The AP article also suggests that this work, reported as worth $10M/year, was not reported under the Foreign Agents Registration Act.

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    "Donald Trump will serve a second term as president of the United States.

    It’s over."


    Little Thethe Nov 19, 2020.

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    Is this the incidental collection of data from the trump admin?

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    Remember kids... voting for anyone other than R or D is a wasted vote

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to sturg33 For This Useful Post:

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    cajunrevenge (03-23-2017), chop2chip (03-22-2017), Hawk (03-22-2017)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sturg33 View Post
    Will nobody stand up to Putin in his march toward Korea?

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    How can someone like this get a job in government. What a disgrace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Julio3000 View Post
    That our current political state of play depends largely on the good graces of the hyper-monied elite is not something I'd take issue with.

    That the relationship is directly analogous to Russia is not.

    Trump's not going to jail Tom Steyer. Obama didn't put David Koch in a cage for a show trial and then exile him. We may be more in the thrall of the Mercers, Koches, Adelsons, Steyers, and Soroses than we'd like, but we're not an autocracy enforced by the state security services.

    Whatever the wheezing weaknesses of our status quo, we still have a functioning party system with free and fair elections, an independent judiciary, and a free press that reflects a diversity of opinion.

    Those things don't exist in Putin's Russia. Russian "oligarchs" today exist at the sufferance of the guy at the top. They are free to get richer and wield their power and influence only to the extent that it doesn't threaten Putin. Witness Prokhorov, Khodorkovsky, et. al. Witness Gusinsky and Berezovsky. Play ball and stay rich. Wander off the reservation and face the consequences.

    One guy has been in power in Russia for 16 years. The oligarchs that play ball with him are fat and happy. The ones that don't are dispossessed, dead, or living overseas. The new crop of elites are joined at the hip to Putin. The old ones kiss the ring or pay the price. Is this something you'd dispute?

    What oligarchs in Russia are anti-Putin?
    I never claimed the two political circumstances were directly analogous. I think that's fairly obvious. However, it's disingenuous to proceed as though there is no comparison to be made at all between the power struggles of the American/Russian bourgeoisie (Marxist variety) and their respective governments. Obama may not have put polonium in David Koch's coffee, but I wouldn't characterize Obama era policy decisions made in relation to enterprises the Koch Brothers had ties to as particularly friendly. Then again, I wouldn't expect them to be after the brothers had spent somewhere in the neighborhood of ~$100 million dollars to try and keep the former President out of office.

    There is a de facto balance of power between industry and government in the United States.

    And, yes, I'd dispute your view of the Russian power structure as it exists in relation to Putin. Vladimir doesn't just sit at the top of the pyramid and dictate to the oligarchy. There was a consolidation of power and it came at Putin's kind request - not command. Keep that in mind. As for your Prokhorov's ... well, they challenged Putin's (and thereby the collective oligarchical fraternity's) power directly. That's far different than 'wandering off the reservation'.
    Last edited by Hawk; 03-22-2017 at 03:26 PM.

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    A Chip Off the Old Rock Julio3000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thethe View Post
    Is this the incidental collection of data from the trump admin?
    "Incidental collection is not equivalent to government-directed surveillance of an American citizen." - Sen. Lindsey Graham

    This would seem to invite the question of why Rep. Nunes considers it his job to report to the executive branch instead of performing oversight of it.

    To say nothing of the fact that he stated that it was legal.

    You know, I hope this wasn't a product for one of those "illegal leaks" that we've heard so much about. That would be, to coin a term, sad.

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    Trump's approval numbers are going down fast. His disapproval marching upwards.

    I wonder how long he's gonna play the rigged polls card before some in his base start turning on him. Anecdotal but I know some diehards with him from the beginning already not happy with Trumpcare and the tweets about being wiretapped.
    Forever Fredi


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    Nunes just gave Trump a complete get out of jail free card regarding the Obama wiretap comments.

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    A Chip Off the Old Rock Julio3000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    So are you trying to tell me that you believe the relationship Putin enjoys with his titans of industry is materially different than the relationship the American president enjoys with our own kingmakers?
    Forgive me for thinking that you are making a direct analog here. It seems fairly evident.

    As for Vova's relationship to his boyars, show me an anti-Putin oligarch or one who has bucked the boss and maintained his place and maybe we can further this conversation.

    The old Yeltsin "Family" was divided into those who would play ball and those who would not. Their respective fates are a matter of public record. The latest breed are Putin's men, and they maintain their position at his sufferance.

    Again, provide me a counter-example and maybe we have something to talk about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Nunes just gave Trump a complete get out of jail free card regarding the Obama wiretap comments.
    I agree with this. How is an act like this incidental?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Julio3000 View Post
    Forgive me for thinking that you are making a direct analog here. It seems fairly evident.
    A direct analogue would be: Putin enjoys the same relationship with his titans of industry as American Presidents do with theirs.

    I asked how it was materially different, the inference being that there is some difference the question of which is magnitude.

    As for Vova's relationship to his boyars, show me an anti-Putin oligarch or one who has bucked the boss and maintained his place and maybe we can further this conversation.

    The old Yeltsin "Family" was divided into those who would play ball and those who would not. Their respective fates are a matter of public record. The latest breed are Putin's men, and they maintain their position at his sufferance.

    Again, provide me a counter-example and maybe we have something to talk about.
    The president pledged not to reverse Russia's controversial privatizations of the 1990s, in which valuable state enterprises were sold at fire-sale prices to insiders--rigged auctions in which most of the so-called oligarchs at the table made their fortunes.

    In return, Putin asked them to support his plans to streamline taxes and gain Russian admission to the World Trade Organization. And he got that support, as well as an unusual promise to uphold Russia's "state" interests.

  22. #3760
    Connoisseur of Minors zitothebrave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Nunes just gave Trump a complete get out of jail free card regarding the Obama wiretap comments.
    Yup, by pointing the fire at himself

    http://www.politico.com/story/2017/0...e-obama-236366

    Democratic Rep. David Cicilline knocked Nunes on Twitter for his decision to brief the White House on his findings — noting that Nunes is leading a congressional investigation into possible collusion between the Trump team and Russia.

    “Investigators are not supposed to ‘brief’ the folks being investigated,” the Rhode Island congressman said.
    Stockholm, more densely populated than NYC - sturg

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