The Trump Presidency

[Hawk]

Proud Boys/FOAK (McInnes) or the Patriot/Constitutional Militia movement (and their various charters), organizations like NSM or alt-lite/alt-right subgroups that don't latch onto the supremacist angle, yeah, absolutely.

MacInnes has contributed to several ws and anti-semitic publications, in addition to a litany of other garbage he's been involved with. You want to discuss him, I'm happy to.

"Patriot/Constitutional Militia movement" is a little overbroad, but since they've brought us OKC and dozens of other incidents of violence against innocents over the years, I'm pretty comfortable going there.

Ok, alt-lite/alt-right subgroups? Which ones were there? To whom shall I address my apology in case they're not actually vile bigots?

NSM? You mean the actual ****ing neo-Nazis?

Julio, my man, I'm not asking you to tell me why you think these groups/individuals are bad, I'm asking you to demonstrate how their agenda is "100% consistent" with indiscriminate murder.

https://web.archive.org/web/20130404...ointsengl.html

[Hawk]

Oh, yeah...one of those Patriot/Constitutional militia types was arrested today for attempting to blow up a bank in Oklahoma.

I'm really sorry if I mistakenly broad-brushed his ilk as Nazis instead of just terrorists.

Speaking to undercover agents, he cited the film Fight Club and the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing as inspiration.

“You got to break a couple of eggs to make an omelet,” Jerry Drake Varnell, 23, allegedly told an undercover FBI agent. “That’s why people don’t do this (expletive) because, you know, you got to be able to overcome that little reality there.”

[Julio3000]

Julio, my man, I'm not asking you to tell me why you think these groups/individuals are bad, I'm asking you to demonstrate how their agenda is "100% consistent" with indiscriminate murder.

https://web.archive.org/web/20130404...ointsengl.html

And I'm asking you--again--what about Nazis is inconsistent with ethnic cleansing or blood in the streets? You've read about the end of Weimar Germany, so let's not play dumb.

I've visited these websites. They may not explicitly endorse genocide, because that could potentially open them up to legal liability, but comment sections etc are all about the ovens.

But these folks, and plenty of others, DO explicitly endorse a white ethnostate. How do you suppose they'd plan to acheive that?

[sturg33]

Ok, cool. Get to work on that. Best of luck.

Oh so you like to pick and choose when we're allowed to be outraged

[Julio3000]

You're really saying that neo-Nazis DON'T support violence and terrorism against enemies?

[Julio3000]

Oh so you like to pick and choose when we're allowed to be outraged

Nah, I just think you're full of ****. But be my guest on the MLK monument campaign.

[Hawk]

You're really saying that neo-Nazis DON'T support violence and terrorism against enemies?

Lol, no, I'm saying that the right-wing protesters in Charlottesville did not unite under an universal ideology "100% consistent" with murdering people of color, political leftists, or individuals that they just happen to disagree with.

[sturg33]

Nah, I just think you're full of ****. But be my guest on the MLK monument campaign.

If you're asking if I'm actually offended by an MLK statue, then you're right.

Somebody in this country has to be able to live a day in their life without getting their feelings hurt at something. Sorry you're so easily offended... I'm sure there is some leftover playdough

[Hawk]

And I'm asking you--again--what about Nazis is inconsistent with ethnic cleansing or blood in the streets? You've read about the end of Weimar Germany, so let's not play dumb.

So you believe that ethnic cleansing/blood in the streets is the inevitable corollary of neo-fascism?

[Hawk]

I've visited these websites. They may not explicitly endorse genocide, because that could potentially open them up to legal liability, but comment sections etc are all about the ovens.

But these folks, and plenty of others, DO explicitly endorse a white ethnostate. How do you suppose they'd plan to acheive that?

No, you are absolutely right, these people do exist and in droves. But I view them as a fanatical anomaly that can, and should, be sliced off the body politic like a malignant mole. At the same time, I'm not comfortable condemning the entire alt-right/alt-lite (which is, at the very least, a somewhat sensible attempt to distance from the anti-Semitic idiocy) to hell as neo-Nazis because of this unavoidable intersection of populism-nationalism-neofascism (née nazism [?]).

I'm looking at this from the perspective of trying to accurately understand why a President might be reluctant to chastise a specific group of protesters. I think you know that it's not because he's a closet white supremacist, and certainly not because he can't survive without their vote, but because there is a fringe element to consider and they, unlike the NSM, or Richard Spencer, or Vanguard America, are 'reachable' in a progressive sociopolitical sense.

[Julio3000]

So you believe that ethnic cleansing/blood in the streets is the inevitable corollary of neo-fascism?

I think those are both likely potential outcomes, and I'd be interested to know why you think otherwise.

That's how fascism began, and ended. Why would fascism, the remix be different?

[Julio3000]

No, you are absolutely right, these people do exist and in droves. But I view them as a fanatical anomaly that can, and should, be sliced off the body politic like a malignant mole. At the same time, I'm not comfortable condemning the entire alt-right/alt-lite (which is, at the very least, a somewhat sensible attempt to distance from the anti-Semitic idiocy) to hell as neo-Nazis because of this unavoidable intersection of populism-nationalism-neofascism (née nazism [?]).

I'm looking at this from the perspective of trying to accurately understand why a President might be reluctant to chastise a specific group of protesters. I think you know that it's not because he's a closet white supremacist, and certainly not because he can't survive without their vote, but because there is a fringe element to consider and they, unlike the NSM, or Richard Spencer, or Vanguard America, are 'reachable' in a progressive sociopolitical sense.

I think I get what you're saying here, but it's precisely my point that the intersection you mention is inevitable.

I mean, it really seems like it is. From where I sit, any non-racist, non-anti-Semite alt-righter (I'll assume they exist because you say so, not that you've shown receipts or anything) looked at this event and said:

"Hmm. Enoch from therightstuff. The Daily Stormer. David Duke. NSA. Other neo-Nazi groups. Sounds like a great chance to show the world that I don't hate blacks & jews but am just extremely proud of my whiteness."

I'm being flippant, but you see my problem, right?

So when that intersection seems to never not happen--even media-savvy, brand-aware people like Gavin McI are never more than one degree removed from literal white supremacists--what's an outsider to think?

If you want to reach those people politically, that's your business, but it seems like a pretty toxic swamp to wade in.

[Julio3000]

If you're asking if I'm actually offended by an MLK statue, then you're right.

Somebody in this country has to be able to live a day in their life without getting their feelings hurt at something. Sorry you're so easily offended... I'm sure there is some leftover playdough

Seems like you're the one whose jimmies are rustled by the prospect of tearing down some white supremacist participation trophies. Try the play-doh. It's nice.

[Runnin]

Lol, no, I'm saying that the right-wing protesters in Charlottesville did not unite under an universal ideology "100% consistent" with murdering people of color, political leftists, or individuals that they just happen to disagree with.

You see a difference between a more measured form of White Revolution and all out genocide?

[weso1]

Lol. I've been watching the Gavin Mcinness show for a while now because of there being so few right wing comedy shows. I think his show is hilarious and it's really been something to watch the rise of the Proud Boys. The fact that such a goofy organization has risen to what it has is incredible. I think the Proud Boys is actually a perfect group for young men to channel their frustrations in regards to regressive left social justice warriorism. It's far from a hate group. I think people see the word "proud" and immediately think of white pride, but the origins actually came from making fun of a song from the Aladdin musical. And I think they've done a good job of trying to weed out the alt right. People know Gavin's show is a comedy show right? And if you want to know what his opinions are than just watch his show. He's not exactly shy. I love how this guilt by association and racism game only works in one direction. Does the fact that he's friends with Samantha Bee and Jason Jones count? The fact that he's married to a native american make a difference? The fact that he is clearly pro Israel and employed by a jew mean anything? He's certainly said some racially offensive things and told some bad jokes and I understand why folks don't want to watch him because of that, especially those on the left, but he's far from what the lefty media is desperate to portray him as. I think in the realm of the comedy world he's really not any more offensive then comedians on the left.

[Julio3000]

I'd argue that Nazism was a perversion of Fascism, much like Stalinism was a perversion of Marxism.

At the far end of both sides of the spectrum is totalitarianism and that's historically where it's all gone to ****.

What would you consider to be a better example of unadulterated fascism?

[thethe]

http://www.budgetmodel.wharton.upenn...rowth-and-jobs

[weso1]

Just in the lulz department...Alex Jones suggested that images of Nazis in Cville were actually Jewish actors. He did this during an interview with...
...
...
Gavin McInnes

The Totally Not-Objectionable, Definitely-Not-Nazi Alt-Lite, keepin it real with InfoWars.

Punch him!

[zitothebrave]

I just want to point out here that Fascism and Nazism are not the same thing.

Yeah, they're the same thing.

[zitothebrave]

Because he was an enormous historical figure that was instrumental in this country's founding and did a lot of ****ing amazing things for this country.

But he owned slaves so we must wipe the memory of him. George Washington too.. better start printing up new money - get that ****er's face off of there.

So your case for keeping a statue of him is historical importance,