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Thread: Braves "Kick Tires" on Dozier

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    Fredi Gonzalez Supporter Dalyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horsehide Harry View Post
    Which is why the Nick signing has never made a lick of sense.
    It's all about the Mukaki Rebuild.

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    Expects Huge Games nsacpi's Avatar
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    It is clear they shifted gears quite a bit between the Muk signing and the BJ trade.

    The steps as I recall:

    1) Heyward trade--some emphasis on bringing back major league talent (Miller). Nov 17

    2) Muk signing--clearly willing to spend on major league talent that is past its prime. Dec 3

    3) Justin Upton--traded for young talent that is mostly not major league ready. Dec 19

    4) Gattis trade--similar to the Justin Upton trade. Jan 14

    5) Kimbrel/BJ trade--we did take on part of Carlos Quentin's contract presumably to offset the Pads taking on BJ's contract. We also got Maybin. But the return mostly centered around Wisler. April 5.

    The narrative that the front office shared with the public shifted quite a bit. From looking to compete if they could acquire some young major league ready starting pitching. To being committed to playing Gattis in left. I think the front office's thinking changed quite a bit over the course of the off-season. This probably reflected a number of factors. One being the kinds of returns they were getting in the trades. Each trade I think changed the calculus a bit about what they would be willing to do in subsequent trades. I suspect to some extent they simply changed their assessment of what needed to be done and adjusted on the fly.

    A famous military strategist once said "no battle plan survives contact with the enemy." The message being you have to be flexible and adjust to events. That's what the front office did. But I do think there is a legitimate criticism to be make given the distance they traveled in going from their initial strategy (including signing Muk) and the course they ultimately embarked upon. You want a plan that is somewhat in tune to the reality you are going to face.
    Last edited by nsacpi; 12-31-2016 at 12:51 PM.

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    Very Flirtatious, but Doubts What Love Is. jpx7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clvclv View Post
    They didn't give Ender that extension to hit second or sixth, sorry.
    I don't think you can assume the extension is tied to where the Braves see Inciarte hitting in the lineup; it's about his overall value as a player. I also don't think contract should dictate where a player hits, if the organization has a better player for that slot.

    I'm not saying Smith is or will be that player. But if he shows himself to be a ~.370 OBP player, with his speed, while Inciarte is simply able to maintain his (career-best, heretofore) ~.350 OBP, it'd be silly to insist on leading-off Inciarte simply because the Braves "didn't give Ender that extension to hit second or sixth". If Smith offensively produces to the level many on here seem to think he's capable (something about which I am personally skeptical, though hopeful, given minor-league production), then a near-future lineup with Smith and Inciarte atop the lineup, followed by Freeman, Kemp, and Swanson in some order, could be a pretty good configuration; the team could still slot Albies eighth (or ninth!), with the major questions marks again being 3B and C.
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    Expects Huge Games nsacpi's Avatar
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    Stephen Drew and Kelly Johnson are still available as options who could provide a left handed hitter on the bench and play some games at third. Don't think either signing would require promises on where they hit in the lineup.
    Last edited by nsacpi; 01-01-2017 at 09:51 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nsacpi View Post
    Stephen Drew and Kelly Johnson are still available as options who could provide a left handed hitter on the bench and play some games at third. Don't think either signing would require promises on where they hit in the lineup.
    I would much prefer Drew. Valbuena would be an even bigger upgrade, but I think the plan is to give the bulk of the 3b PAs to SRod for the next 2 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enscheff View Post
    I would much prefer Drew. Valbuena would be an even bigger upgrade, but I think the plan is to give the bulk of the 3b PAs to SRod for the next 2 years.
    Valbuena seems like he expects to be an everyday player and while he would certainly be a nice option against RHP, I just don't see him getting those AB's with Garcia, SRod, and Ruiz already getting at-bats.
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    Has been interesting listening to Bowden and Duquette this morning. Bowden says he's still hearing that we're very much still "in" on Dozier, and that the calls for best offer may have been an attempt to get the Dodgers to up their offer for him.

    As he mentions, Dozier still makes lots of sense for us - even long-term - if you don't have to include Albies in the deal to get Dozier. For example...

    1.) Jace, Wisler, and Blair for Dozier and you extend Dozier as your long-term 2B. You could even make Demeritte part of the deal if needed.

    2.) Albies, Newcomb, Mallex, and Sims for Quintana

    3.) Platoon Rio and S-Rod at 3B for two years - at that point Riley (or even Maitan) could possibly be ready to step in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by clvclv View Post
    Has been interesting listening to Bowden and Duquette this morning. Bowden says he's still hearing that we're very much still "in" on Dozier, and that the calls for best offer may have been an attempt to get the Dodgers to up their offer for him.

    As he mentions, Dozier still makes lots of sense for us - even long-term - if you don't have to include Albies in the deal to get Dozier. For example...

    1.) Jace, Wisler, and Blair for Dozier and you extend Dozier as your long-term 2B. You could even make Demeritte part of the deal if needed.

    2.) Albies, Newcomb, Mallex, and Sims for Quintana

    3.) Platoon Rio and S-Rod at 3B for two years - at that point Riley (or even Maitan) could possibly be ready to step in.
    I just think I'd rather have Albies, Wisler, Blair, Newcomb, Sims, and Mallex than Dozier and Quintana. And I'm not sure that package would get you Quintana.

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    Arizona Fall Leaguer SJ24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clvclv View Post
    Has been interesting listening to Bowden and Duquette this morning. Bowden says he's still hearing that we're very much still "in" on Dozier, and that the calls for best offer may have been an attempt to get the Dodgers to up their offer for him.

    As he mentions, Dozier still makes lots of sense for us - even long-term - if you don't have to include Albies in the deal to get Dozier. For example...

    1.) Jace, Wisler, and Blair for Dozier and you extend Dozier as your long-term 2B. You could even make Demeritte part of the deal if needed.

    2.) Albies, Newcomb, Mallex, and Sims for Quintana

    3.) Platoon Rio and S-Rod at 3B for two years - at that point Riley (or even Maitan) could possibly be ready to step in.

    Those 1st 2 trades would be absolute steals for us. Sign Wieters and we'd be in the Wild Card hunt.

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    C- Matt Wieters
    1B- Freddie Freeman
    2B- Brian Dozier
    SS- Dansby Swanson
    3B- Adonis/Rio/S-Rod
    LF- Matt Kemp
    CF- Ender Inciarte
    RF- Nick Markakis

    SP- Julio Teheran
    SP- Jose Quintana
    SP- Mike Foltynewicz
    SP- Jaime Garcia
    SP- R.A. Dickey
    SP- Bartolo Colon

    Does anyone think this team couldn't compete for a Wild Card spot?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SJ24 View Post
    C- Matt Wieters
    1B- Freddie Freeman
    2B- Brian Dozier
    SS- Dansby Swanson
    3B- Adonis/Rio/S-Rod
    LF- Matt Kemp
    CF- Ender Inciarte
    RF- Nick Markakis

    SP- Julio Teheran
    SP- Jose Quintana
    SP- Mike Foltynewicz
    SP- Jaime Garcia
    SP- R.A. Dickey
    SP- Bartolo Colon

    Does anyone think this team couldn't compete for a Wild Card spot?
    I absolutely think that team competes and has a really good shot at stealing a playoff spot.

    If we can get Dozier for Wisler and Blair, you do it. No questions asked. That being said, I bet it takes more. I think Wisler/Blair, Demeritte and a lower-level prospect makes sense, but it still may not be enough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJ24 View Post
    C- Matt Wieters
    1B- Freddie Freeman
    2B- Brian Dozier
    SS- Dansby Swanson
    3B- Adonis/Rio/S-Rod
    LF- Matt Kemp
    CF- Ender Inciarte
    RF- Nick Markakis

    SP- Julio Teheran
    SP- Jose Quintana
    SP- Mike Foltynewicz
    SP- Jaime Garcia
    SP- R.A. Dickey
    SP- Bartolo Colon

    Does anyone think this team couldn't compete for a Wild Card spot?
    Inciarte CF
    Swanson SS
    Freeman 1B
    Kemp LF
    Dozier 2B
    Markakis RF
    Wieters C
    S-Rod/Adonis 3B

    That's solid, man.
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    Quote Originally Posted by smootness View Post
    I just think I'd rather have Albies, Wisler, Blair, Newcomb, Sims, and Mallex than Dozier and Quintana. And I'm not sure that package would get you Quintana.
    Not saying I'd necessarily do it either, but will give Bowden credit for explaining himself on this one - saying that the only way interest from our perspective makes any sense is if we were going to retain Dozier for the long haul. The next step of then going to get Quintana (or Archer) is my speculation - but would seem logical if you were going to add Dozier now and extend him. As mentioned, you'd then have to be considered as someone with a legitimate shot this season, and if you had Dozier and one of those SPs locked up to go along with Julio, Freeman, Swanson, and Inciarte, you'd have plenty of core pieces in place and under control, and still have Folty, Fried, and Weigel to compete for back-end spots over the next couple years plus the option to keep Dickey around to eat innings in 2018 if needed.
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    Anytime Now Frankie...
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    That would be my guess to on Dozier. If we did get him then we'd flip Albies for a TOR starter. It makes sense. But I'd bet the Dodgers end up with him.

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    Jace, Wisler and Blair for Dozier? The Twins want more than De Leon, not less.

    No thanks to Uggla v2.0 anyways.

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    Arbitration Eligible zbhargrove's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enscheff View Post
    Jace, Wisler and Blair for Dozier? The Twins want more than De Leon, not less.

    No thanks to Uggla v2.0 anyways.
    Well for one, most reports say the Dodgers aren't willing to give up De Leon, so there's that...
    Different player than Uggla. Much more athletic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enscheff View Post
    Jace, Wisler and Blair for Dozier? The Twins want more than De Leon, not less.

    No thanks to Uggla v2.0 anyways.
    And the Braves want Bregman for Teheran...and Encarnacion wanted 5/$100 million...and Joey Bats thought he was going to cash-in...and the White Sox wanted Devers in the package for Sale too...and I wanted a lot more for Christmas than I got...

    (Oh yeah - and Borass wants a Mac deal for Wieters.)
    Last edited by clvclv; 01-06-2017 at 02:23 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zbhargrove View Post
    Well for one, most reports say the Dodgers aren't willing to give up De Leon, so there's that...
    Different player than Uggla. Much more athletic.
    Most reports? Like this one?

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/1...fer-twins.html

    That literally says: "Los Angeles is seeking a straight up, one-for-one swap of Dozier and top pitching prospect Jose De Leon"? Reports like that?

    Every single thing I've read for the last month was they have settled on De Leon, and the Twins are playing these games trying to get the Dodgers to add another significant piece.

    Should I go dig up 10 other links stating exactly the same thing? Where are all these reports suggesting otherwise? In what world would the Twins take a lesser package from the Braves than the one that has been on the table from the Dodgers for a month?
    Last edited by Enscheff; 01-06-2017 at 05:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enscheff View Post
    Jace, Wisler and Blair for Dozier? The Twins want more than De Leon, not less.

    No thanks to Uggla v2.0 anyways.
    I don't know what the value of De Leon is, and it's likely the Twins do value him more, but you continue to value Wisler and Blair like they are fodder. Blair was a top 50 prospect this time a year ago and while Wisler has struggled in the majors the last two years, he also was a top pitching prospect a short time ago. Both guys still have mid rotation ceilings and plenty of time to reach those ceilings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carp View Post
    I don't know what the value of De Leon is, and it's likely the Twins do value him more, but you continue to value Wisler and Blair like they are fodder. Blair was a top 50 prospect this time a year ago and while Wisler has struggled in the majors the last two years, he also was a top pitching prospect a short time ago. Both guys still have mid rotation ceilings and plenty of time to reach those ceilings.
    This is why we can't have informed baseball discussion here. I said Wisler and Blair are not as valuable as De Leon. Further, since the Twins are holding out for more than De Leon, logic dictates they would not settle for a return less valuable than De Leon. Therefore, we can conclude Wisler and Blair are not enough to get Dozier.

    I did not say Wisler and Blair are fodder. If I say Trout is better than Freeman does that mean I'm calling Freeman a bum?

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