Climate Change

[Julio3000]

That's not what I was doing.

But thanks anyways

Um, when has that not been what you are doing?

[sturg33]

Looks like businesses and states are realizing they can make a difference without mommy government making them.

^^^^

[Julio3000]

Seems like a distinction without a difference.

[sturg33]

Seems like a distinction without a difference.

i didn't realize I need to spell it out.

So... what I was saying, is that it appears the businesses are realizing they can make a difference without the government making them (that's good).

What you are saying, is that they won't. And that is yet to be seen.

[Julio3000]

i didn't realize I need to spell it out.

So... what I was saying, is that it appears the businesses are realizing they can make a difference without the government making them (that's good).

What you are saying, is that they won't. And that is yet to be seen.

You may be right. And yet, there is an historical record to depend on.

[jpx7]

i didn't realize I need to spell it out.

So... what I was saying, is that it appears the businesses are realizing they can make a difference without the government making them (that's good).

What you are saying, is that they won't. And that is yet to be seen.

I guess, when history has shown pretty clearly they won't, I'd like a little more than "maybe they will?" as assurance. Tell me—and I ask earnestly—why do you think businesses will suddenly become better stewards of the environment, sans oversight, even if they never (or very rarely) have before?

[sturg33]

You may be right. And yet, there is an historical record to depend on.

The only thing I am right about is that they are realizing that they have the capacity to do it, which is all I have said

[sturg33]

I guess, when history has shown pretty clearly they won't, I'd like a little more than "maybe they will?" as assurance. Tell me—and I ask earnestly—why do you think businesses will suddenly become better stewards of the environment, sans oversight, even if they never (or very rarely) have before?

I think the new customer (millennial) is demanding it, and businesses will respond to meet the market demands.

The less regulation, the easier this will be.

[jpx7]

I think the new customer (millennial) is demanding it, and businesses will respond to meet the market demands.

The less regulation, the easier this will be.

I just don't have the same faith in unregulated business as you do.

Maybe I'm too cynical, but my presumption is—taking as accurate your premise that "the new customer (millennial) is demanding" environmentally-responsible industry—that businesses, outside of any regulatory oversight forcing them otherwise, will just find a way to aggressively market themselves as "green", then benefit from that marketing posture without ever actually investing in environmentally responsible practices and products. Then they'll just bet, as they already do, that any exposés uncovering their lies will blow over quickly enough that it won't be too costly to the bottom-line—sort of like how big banks would rather just pay their wrist-slap fines than genuinely quit defrauding folks.

[Julio3000]

Greenwashing is way cheaper than meaningful change. Lobbying and paying fines is cheaper than adjusting your business model significantly. Same in finance as in fossil fuels. Why would you expect any different?

[sturg33]

The private sector has done so much more for clean energy than anything the government has done, and it's not even close.

Elon Musk says hi

[Krgrecw]

The private sector has done so much more for clean energy than anything the government has done, and it's not even close.

Elon Musk says hi

Apple clobbered past that goal and is now working toward 100% renewable energy worldwide.
"In 2016, 96 percent of the electricity used at our global facilities came from renewable energy, reducing our carbon emissions by nearly 585,000 metric tons. We're 100 percent renewable in 24 countries -- and all of Apple's data centers," Lisa Jackson, Apple Vice president of environment policy, said in an annual letter released earlier this year. Jackson served as the administrator for the Environmental Protection Agency from 2009 to 2013.



Nah. The government can do a better job :)

[zitothebrave]

I think the new customer (millennial) is demanding it, and businesses will respond to meet the market demands.

The less regulation, the easier this will be.

Millenials and Gen Xers have been demanding electric cars, Solar, etc. but I'm not seeing BP jumping on the solar train.

Electric Cars wouldn't be even a remote thing without Musk and Musk wouldn't be where he was without GOvernment aid.

[Julio3000]

The private sector has done so much more for clean energy than anything the government has done, and it's not even close.

Elon Musk says hi

That's awesome. Straw men aside, how did the private sector deal with, for example, leaded gasoline? Where do you think the car companies would have been for the last 3 decades without fleet mileage standards?

We're having two different discussions here. As usual, market fundamentalism isn't really enough.

[sturg33]

Millenials and Gen Xers have been demanding electric cars, Solar, etc. but I'm not seeing BP jumping on the solar train.

Electric Cars wouldn't be even a remote thing without Musk and Musk wouldn't be where he was without GOvernment aid.

Wait wait wait.... You think we don't have electric cars without Tesla getting $4.9m in govt subsidies???


Hahahahahahahaha.

I forget though... You are the guy who says we need government to give us roads while Musk is sending people to Mars

[The Chosen One]

I think the new customer (millennial) is demanding it, and businesses will respond to meet the market demands.

The less regulation, the easier this will be.

How and why do you think millenials started demanding it? Why do you think climate change has become a big issue amongst millenials?

It has less to do with millenials going hmmm electric cars are cool and they don't have a big carbon footprint. It has everything to do with self-survival. Millenials want to live on a planet that isn't going to be raped by climate change. I don't want my grandkids to have to suffer because we as a country and society were too stubborn to do something about this and waited too long. Most Boomers don't seem to care as much about climate change since they already had their pie. It's millenials trying to elect leaders that are willing to fight for our country to be a leader on the global stage of climate change.

The Paris Accords have less to do with China or India, and more to do with the United States being a leader and leading by example. It's the message and direction the United States wants to lead the world with. The problem people have with Trump pulling out is 1) He's been campaigning on climate change being a hoax and 2) He's shown no commitment for our government to leading the way for renewables.

[The Chosen One]

Wait wait wait.... You think we don't have electric cars without Tesla getting $4.9m in govt subsidies???


Hahahahahahahaha.

I forget though... You are the guy who says we need government to give us roads while Musk is sending people to Mars

Tesla has been the biggest driving force in the electric car industry. It's only after all the hype they've received have the other big car companies invested more to try and make sure Tesla doesn't dominate the market.

If Musk wasn't pushing this, it's not really likely the other Big auto companies invest as much in it now than later. You forget half the country still thinks climate change is a hoax. So if there's no need to create demand for electric cars, why would people get it? Because of hte novelty?

[zitothebrave]

Wait wait wait.... You think we don't have electric cars without Tesla getting $4.9m in govt subsidies???


Hahahahahahahaha.

I forget though... You are the guy who says we need government to give us roads while Musk is sending people to Mars

And how much money is he getting from the Government for his research? Not to mention the money for launching satellites into space?

All of Musk's Companies as of early 2015 received 4.9 Billion dollars in government subsidies according to the LA Times

[The Chosen One]

Apple clobbered past that goal and is now working toward 100% renewable energy worldwide.
"In 2016, 96 percent of the electricity used at our global facilities came from renewable energy, reducing our carbon emissions by nearly 585,000 metric tons. We're 100 percent renewable in 24 countries -- and all of Apple's data centers," Lisa Jackson, Apple Vice president of environment policy, said in an annual letter released earlier this year. Jackson served as the administrator for the Environmental Protection Agency from 2009 to 2013.



Nah. The government can do a better job :)

Weird how Musk and Apple have been two of the biggest critics of Trump pulling out of Paris agreement, and are two companies that have wanted more government leadership on climate change action.


Why are you and sturg trying to insinuate that Musk and Apple are leading by example, and at the same time don't want government to step in and take a bigger role to help them? They're not mutually exclusive.

[weso1]

American businesses knew that leaded gasoline was a massive public health risk for how long before they voluntarily stopped using it?

Oh, wait. They didn't voluntarily stop using it.

If you're going to try to pivot from "there is no anthropogenic climate change" to "the market will fix it without any intervention or price signals," the historical record is probably not going to back you up.

The free market did discover a better alternative to lead. It was suppressed in large part by the collusion between large corporations and government. Corporatism was the main economic driver behind the leaded gasoline phenomenon. Lead possibly would have never been an issue in the first place had government not gotten involved.