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Thread: Russia Collusion Scandal (aka A Leftist fantasy)

  1. #8621
    Expects Yuge Games nsacpi's Avatar
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    More from Wittes:

    The dishonesty only begins with the laughably selective quotation of Mueller’s report in Barr’s original letter, the scope of which Charlie Savage laid out in a remarkable New York Times article shortly after the full report was released. I urge people to look at Savage’s side-by-side quotations. The distortion of Mueller’s meaning across a range of areas is not subtle, and it’s not hard to understand why Mueller himself wrote to Barr saying that the attorney general’s letter “did not fully capture the context, nature, and substance of this Office’s work and conclusions.”

    As I read them, Barr’s public statements on the report reflect at least seven different layers of substantive misrepresentation, layers which build on one another into a dramatic rewriting of the president’s conduct—and of Mueller’s findings about the president’s conduct. It is worth unpacking and disentangling these misrepresentations, because each is mischievous on its own, but together they operate as a disinformation campaign being run by the senior leadership of the Justice Department.

    The first element is Barr’s repeated conflation of that which Mueller has deemed to be not provable to the exacting standards of criminal law with that which is not true at all or for which there is no evidence. Mueller determined that the evidence “did not establish” Trump-campaign participation in a criminal conspiracy with the Russians to interfere in the 2016 presidential election. Mueller also makes clear that when his report describes that “the investigation did not establish particular facts,” this “does not mean there was no evidence of those facts.”

    Yet Barr frequently talks as though Mueller found nothing of concern with respect to the underlying conduct on the part of the Trump campaign. “So that is the bottom line,” Barr said at his press conference.

    Barr’s second sleight of hand—also visible in the quotations above—is rendering the absence of a criminal-conspiracy charge as reflecting an active finding of “no collusion.” These two are very different matters. Conspiracy is a criminal charge. Collusion is a colloquial claim about history. Yet Barr, at his press conference, actually said that “there was in fact no collusion.” He used the phrase no collusion over and over. He even described it as the investigation’s “bottom line.”

    In other words, Barr is not merely translating the absence of sufficient evidence for charges into a crime’s not taking place; he is translating the crime’s not taking place into an absence of misconduct in a more colloquial sense. He is also using the president’s specific talking point in doing so. This pair of mischaracterizations has the effect of transforming Trump into an innocent man falsely accused.

    Barr amplifies this transformation with his third layer of misrepresentation: his adoption of Trump’s “spying” narrative, which states that there was something improper about the FBI’s scrutiny of campaign figures who had bizarre contacts with Russian-government officials or intermediaries. Barr has not specified precisely what he believes here, but yesterday’s Senate hearing was the second congressional hearing at which he implied darkly that the FBI leadership under James Comey had engaged in some kind of improper surveillance of the Trump campaign. In other words, not only is the president an innocent man falsely accused, but he’s now the victim of “spying on a political campaign”—as Barr put it a few weeks ago—by a biased cabal running the FBI.

    To evaluate these allegations, we will have to await a forthcoming inspector general’s report on the matter. And Barr has promised some kind of review of his own as well. Suffice it for the present to say that I have seen no evidence to support these suggestions, which imply a kind of politically motivated “witch hunt” against Trump. Again, Barr is supporting political tweeting points of the president.

    And here’s the fourth layer of misrepresentation. Barr has repeatedly insisted that our long-suffering president fully cooperated with the investigation, notwithstanding its illegitimate birth and the fact that there was nothing to any of the allegations it investigated. “The White House fully cooperated with the special counsel’s investigation, providing unfettered access to campaign and White House documents, directing senior aides to testify freely, and asserting no privilege claims,” he said at his press conference.

    I suspect this would also come as a surprise to Mueller, who might point out that Trump tried to get witnesses not to cooperate—dangling pardons and seeming to threaten their families with investigation if they “flipped.” Mueller might point out that Trump tried to fire Mueller for conflicts that his own staff regarded as “silly” and “ridiculous.” Mueller might point out that Trump tried to rein in his jurisdiction, limiting him to the investigation of future electoral interference. Mueller might point out that Trump refused to sit for an interview and, even in written answers, refused to address questions concerning allegations of obstruction of justice. I say “might,” but Mueller actually did point all these things out in his report. Ignoring this reflects an astonishing conception of cooperation from the nation’s top prosecutor.
    Last edited by nsacpi; 05-02-2019 at 12:44 PM.
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  2. #8622
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    Looking more and more - Trump had Barr cut the investigation short. and left handed fire Mueller


    We will find out
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  3. #8623
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    Quote Originally Posted by sturg33 View Post
    So you dont accept Muellers conclusions?

    Why did we do this, then?
    Yes, I have to accept his conclusions, but I have to read them in order to know what they are.

    But I do not accept Barr's conclusions, especially since he's admitted that he didn't read the report.
    FFF - BB, BB, 2B, HR, 2B, HR, 1B, BB, BB, 1B, BB, BB, HR

  4. #8624
    Expects Yuge Games nsacpi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Runnin View Post
    Yes, I have to accept his conclusions, but I have to read them in order to know what they are.

    But I do not accept Barr's conclusions, especially since he's admitted that he didn't read the report.
    Mueller's conclusions, for those who have gone to the trouble of reading the report, are different from Barr's spin. Mueller's testimony should clarify some of this.
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  5. #8625
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    Any discussion on the confirmation of spying on the trump campaign?

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    Spying or investigating reports of foreign participations in the campaign ?

  7. #8627
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    Quote Originally Posted by 57Brave View Post
    Spying or investigating reports of foreign participations in the campaign ?
    That yielded no substantial evidence. Yes that spying.

  8. #8628
    Connoisseur of Minors zitothebrave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thethe View Post
    That yielded no substantial evidence. Yes that spying.
    Investigation is not spying.

    "the practice of spying or of using spies, typically by governments to obtain political and military information."


    Don't think the investigation by the FBI yielded any political or military information?
    Stockholm, more densely populated than NYC - sturg

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    Regardless what the investigation finds.

    Regardless whether you and I agree on " subdtantial evidences"

    After 9/11 connecting the dots

  10. #8630
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    Quote Originally Posted by zitothebrave View Post
    Investigation is not spying.

    "the practice of spying or of using spies, typically by governments to obtain political and military information."


    Don't think the investigation by the FBI yielded any political or military information?
    If you are spying on americans it neess to be predicated on solid information. That is what it in question here.

  11. #8631
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    You call it "spying"

    One overlooked fact of this misleading term, Trump was at what, 15% to win the nomination at the time his campaign was first investigated.
    Even after winning the nomination he was given very little chance of becoming President

    There was as credible / solid information as there was for any number of thwarted terror attacks.
    And that there was any information required counter intelligence/law enforcement involvement
    Suppose this week we find out for the first time of Trumps Campaign contacts with Russia !!!!
    Would be on par and a replay of 9/11 intelligence negligence

    You are being laughed at
    Last edited by 57Brave; 05-03-2019 at 12:25 PM.
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  12. #8632
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    Who is laughing? Hysterical leftists that cant get over you lost?

    Stop it. Muellers report is out and the overarching conclusion wasade that not enough evidence existed to convict. Its all curcumstantial without any smoking gun.

    Americans are thriving due to thhs administration and reaal issues like immigration are now at the forefront.

    Keep focussing on russia and socialism. Youll see who does the laughing in the end.

  13. #8633
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    Whos laughing.

    The investigation was worthy, regardless the findings

  14. #8634
    Connoisseur of Minors zitothebrave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thethe View Post
    If you are spying on americans it neess to be predicated on solid information. That is what it in question here.
    Yes, and I think generally speaking all evidence that's out there is solid. There's some stretching of course. But that can happen in any and all investigations and it's the job of the judge to decide if that's an issue or not. In this case the judge would be the Senate.
    Stockholm, more densely populated than NYC - sturg

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    Quote Originally Posted by zitothebrave View Post
    Yes, and I think generally speaking all evidence that's out there is solid. There's some stretching of course. But that can happen in any and all investigations and it's the job of the judge to decide if that's an issue or not. In this case the judge would be the Senate.
    And of course the motivations of the investigators needs to be an issue the is addressed.

  16. #8636
    if my thought dreams could be seen goldfly's Avatar
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    Trump, Putin discussed Mueller report and agreed no collusion, White House says
    that isn't an onion headline

    this inept white house

    holy ****

    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/whi...4T29Ro2zcp23fo
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    Wow. Well I guess that settles it.
    "Donald Trump will serve a second term as president of the United States.

    It’s over."


    Little Thethe Nov 19, 2020.

  18. #8638
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  19. #8639
    A Chip Off the Old Rock Julio3000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thethe View Post
    If you are spying on americans it neess to be predicated on solid information. That is what it in question here.
    One thing that the Mueller report clarifies is that there was generous predicate for a counterintelligence investigation. There was an intelligence operation to aid the campaign and concurrent attempts to penetrate it. There tends to be a hyper focus on Carter Page and the FISA-based surveillance, but even in that case it’s worth remembering that he had previously been a target of Russian recruitment, and his presence in the campaign looked...kinda sketchy. The only other person who might have been subject to that kind of surveillance was Manafort, and it’s hard to make a case that there wasn’t adequate reason to suspect that he had motives and loyalties that necessitated scrutiny.

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    But if page was such a key target why did he never get charged? Hindsight may be 20/20 but its also an indictment on the competancy of the fbi at the time.

    Ultimately though the dossier heavily influence the surveillance operation and the most impactful claims in there were false. The iformation was fed from foreign sources. Not sure how that isny troublesome.

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