Confederate Monuments

[Julio3000]

You haven't addressed my question about the communist symbol. Does everyone who marches along of them represent murderous regimes?

Serious question.

Can't...escape...logical...trap...

[Julio3000]

Let's do start with a contemporary analysis of "whitewashing" of the Confederacy, please.

I'm dying to learn more about this alternate view of history, where the Civil War was not fought over slavery.

I was taught that in public school. In an AP history class, no less. That was 20 years ago, but it's been a predominate mentality for a long time. I'm sure you're quite well aware of it.

It's also the central theme of all the lost cause mythmaking, sort of like the poem on the memorial that I quoted upthread. The Confederacy was incredibly sanitized in the classroom, and in society at large, where I grew up.

[zitothebrave]

I was taught that in public school. In an AP history class, no less. That was 20 years ago, but it's been a predominate mentality for a long time. and you're quite well aware of it.

It's also the central theme of all the lost cause mythmaking, sort of like the poem on the memorial that I quoted upthread. The Confederacy was incredibly sanitized in the classroom, and in society at large, where I grew up.

Or on posts from this message board.

Or from the Texas Board of Education

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.bc10d705e7aa

[sturg33]

Can't...escape...logical...trap...

It seems we're only allowed to generalize and apply guilt by association when it passes your moral sniff test.

[Julio3000]

Why is it, sturg, that there's so much crossover between neo-Confederates and libertarians? I get the federalism and big gummint part of it, just not the actual individual liberty bit. Like federalism and Lincoln's overreach somehow outweigh wanting to own human beings.

[Julio3000]

It seems we're only allowed to generalize and apply guilt by association when it passes your moral sniff test.

Or maybe it's because I'm talking specifics and you're talking generalities. Also, kind of some apples and oranges involved.

[Julio3000]

Or maybe it's because I'm talking specifics and you're talking generalities. Also, kind of some apples and oranges involved.

Frankly, I've been to protests where all flavors of commies, trots, and fringe-y types showed up. Not my cup of tea, particularly, but also not events that were organized by them or advertised their participation.

But, to repeat, I'm talking about a specific time and place, and a specific event organized by groups whose identities are known and freely available. So I have no reservation saying that it showed extremely poor judgment or extremely poor character on the part of anybody who chose to attend that rally or march with the cosplay fascists.

[sturg33]

Why is it, sturg, that there's so much crossover between neo-Confederates and libertarians? I get the federalism and big gummint part of it, just not the actual individual liberty bit. Like federalism and Lincoln's overreach somehow outweigh wanting to own human beings.

Per usual - I will answer your question while you rarely answer mine.

I can't speak for other libertarians, but only for myself. To your question, I do NOT think the civil war was a war based on slavery. I think there were many factors, and slavery is the easy one for the winner to lay claim to and pass on. As has been already discussed, slavery was not exclusive to the south, yet many people seem to believe that it was.

Do I think slavery is abhorrent? Of course. I may even think of it as worse than actual murder.

Is that what we're talking about? I don't think so.

I'm very concerned today over the country's decisive turn to PC, thought control, and a general public shaming if a person doesn't espouse certain views. I'm concerned about how much the country is concerned about feelings. That we apparently can't even publicly admit that men and women are biologically different. I'm very concerned about our shift to socialism and communism, and about groups like antifa. I'm actually more concerned with them than I am with white nationalist groups. You know why? The white nationalists group is a nobody. Nobody supports them. They don't manipulate anybody to their side. They're a bunch of losers who get together to circle jerk about their ideal society, knowing it will never happen. They are met with appropriate vitriol and deservedly so. To be clear - because I know you guys will **** your pants on that - I think nazi's are the scum of the earth... But their little group meetings don't concern me in the slightest because they are just ****ing losers. Antifa is gaining ground and gaining support.

Antifa isn't met with vitriol. And they should be, from literally everyone. They believe they can dictate what speech the public can hear. When they don't like it, they cause trouble. They intimidate. They assault. They loot. They arson. But we let them off as "activists." Why? You and the libs on here have been hiding behind their ugliness with "stop with the false equivalency - don't support nazis." Ok.. I don't support nazis. But enough with this group of thugs trying to violently assert their will on everyone. And while you guys might support a shift to communism, I don't... because history is pretty clear about what that leads to.

[sturg33]

Frankly, I've been to protests where all flavors of commies, trots, and fringe-y types showed up. Not my cup of tea, particularly, but also not events that were organized by them or advertised their participation.

But, to repeat, I'm talking about a specific time and place, and a specific event organized by groups whose identities are known and freely available. So I have no reservation saying that it showed extremely poor judgment or extremely poor character on the part of anybody who chose to attend that rally or march with the cosplay fascists.

I agree.

I just hope you hold that same level of standard from our friends on the left. If you're willing to march at an antifa protest - then I may as well lump you in as a thug who is willing hurt and steal to limit speech you don't want ot hear

[Hawk]

I was taught that in public school. In an AP history class, no less. That was 20 years ago, but it's been a predominate mentality for a long time. I'm sure you're quite well aware of it.

It's also the central theme of all the lost cause mythmaking, sort of like the poem on the memorial that I quoted upthread.

Taught what?

The Confederacy was incredibly sanitized in the classroom, and in society at large, where I grew up.

In what sense?

Because the curriculum didn't go far enough or because the curriculum didn't go there at all?

[Julio3000]

Taught what?



In what sense?

Because the curriculum didn't go far enough or because the curriculum didn't go there at all?

Taught that the Civil War was not fundamentally a war about slavery.

The curriculum was namby-pamby. The teacher was an outright partisan for the CSA.

[Julio3000]

But, to speak to the larger point, it was culturally sanitized.

As a kid, this. is mostly what I heard from adults ( outside of my home) about the Civil War:


Slavery wasn't all that bad, slaves were well-treated, the confederacy would've ended slavery sooner rather than later, the war was all the Union's fault, the Confederacy as a body was genteel and honorable ... the same kind of **** that you read on the statues, frankly. Which was the entire point.

[Hawk]

But, to speak to the larger point, it was culturally sanitized.

As a kid, this. is mostly what I heard from adults ( outside of my home) about the Civil War:


Slavery wasn't all that bad, slaves were well-treated, the confederacy would've ended slavery sooner rather than later, the war was all the Union's fault, the Confederacy as a body was genteel and honorable ... the same kind of **** that you read on the statues, frankly. Which was the entire point.

I'm not trying to intentionally dilute your point, but my childhood experience was drastically different. And I grew up in city where the Civil War started, surrounded by Confederate statues, monuments, forts, houses, museums, etc. My primary school education, in relation to the war, was focused almost entirely on slavery. We went on field trips to plantations and slave markets and studied the Underground Railroad, figures of the Abolitionist movement, Gullah. Confederate lore centered around things like the Hunley and a study of local figures who were significantly involved in war (like John C. Calhoun, for example).

[Julio3000]

I'm not trying to intentionally dilute your point, but my childhood experience was drastically different. And I grew up in city where the Civil War started, surrounded by Confederate statues, monuments, forts, houses, museums, etc. My primary school education, in relation to the war, was focused almost entirely on slavery. We went on field trips to plantations and slave markets and studied the Underground Railroad, figures of the Abolitionist movement, Gullah. Confederate lore centered around things like the Hunley and a study of local figures who were significantly involved in war (like John C. Calhoun, for example).

That sounds like progress.

[goldfly]

Where are the red coats and English monuments? if we don't have them, how will we remember our history?

[goldfly]

always a good idea to compare someone to a nazi

[sturg33]

[Tapate50]

That ****s funny right there.

Not the slave trade part, but the cities ****ing name. Change that **** too!

[Tapate50]

Per usual - I will answer your question while you rarely answer mine.

I can't speak for other libertarians, but only for myself. To your question, I do NOT think the civil war was a war based on slavery. I think there were many factors, and slavery is the easy one for the winner to lay claim to and pass on. As has been already discussed, slavery was not exclusive to the south, yet many people seem to believe that it was.

Do I think slavery is abhorrent? Of course. I may even think of it as worse than actual murder.

Is that what we're talking about? I don't think so.

I'm very concerned today over the country's decisive turn to PC, thought control, and a general public shaming if a person doesn't espouse certain views. I'm concerned about how much the country is concerned about feelings. That we apparently can't even publicly admit that men and women are biologically different. I'm very concerned about our shift to socialism and communism, and about groups like antifa. I'm actually more concerned with them than I am with white nationalist groups. You know why? The white nationalists group is a nobody. Nobody supports them. They don't manipulate anybody to their side. They're a bunch of losers who get together to circle jerk about their ideal society, knowing it will never happen. They are met with appropriate vitriol and deservedly so. To be clear - because I know you guys will **** your pants on that - I think nazi's are the scum of the earth... But their little group meetings don't concern me in the slightest because they are just ****ing losers. Antifa is gaining ground and gaining support.

Antifa isn't met with vitriol. And they should be, from literally everyone. They believe they can dictate what speech the public can hear. When they don't like it, they cause trouble. They intimidate. They assault. They loot. They arson. But we let them off as "activists." Why? You and the libs on here have been hiding behind their ugliness with "stop with the false equivalency - don't support nazis." Ok.. I don't support nazis. But enough with this group of thugs trying to violently assert their will on everyone. And while you guys might support a shift to communism, I don't... because history is pretty clear about what that leads to.

This is about where I am for better or worse.

I can't help but think back to the threads from the lefties defending colleges hosting radicals or extremists with a criminal history as speakers on college campuses because "that's where we learn our principals" and "getting an education on whats out there, for better or worse" and "that's part of the college experience" type replies. It really shouldn't go just one way... correct me if I'm wrong on that memory.

I said it in another thread, but I don't think people permitted to organize or rally should be allowed to hide their faces. Anonymity gives people too much ability to act with disregard to outside perceptions. If you want to go to a Nazi rally, fine. Just deal with the consequences when your employer or someone else finds out. I think that would do a GOOD bit of halting these violent rallies.

[Jaw]

sturg you're doing great work in this thread man. tremendous.