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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaw View Post
    This is an incredibly ignorant and small minded take. Please research the percentage of Confederate soldiers who owned slaves. Please research tariff and taxation laws prior to 1861.

    Most of all, please pick better, smarter, and more honest sources of information.
    I feel in some ways the small percentage of Southerners owning slaves makes it worse. All the carnage for the Southern Elite to keep owning humans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mqt View Post
    I feel in some ways the small percentage of Southerners owning slaves makes it worse.
    I agree. It was pure tribalism. Otoh I hold in the highest regard the 100,000 white southerners who defied all sorts of family and social pressures to fight on behalf of the Union. Why aren't there more monuments remembering them.
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    I have always felt a hand in hand relationship -- anti-abortion / protect the monuments movements

    this interesting read from NYT 9/16/21
    ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


    By Thomas B. Edsall
    "


    As recently as 1984, abortion was not a deeply partisan issue.

    “The difference in support for the pro-choice position was a mere six percentage points,” Alan Abramowitz, a political scientist at Emory University, told me by email. “40 percent of Democratic identifiers were pro-life, while 39 percent were pro-choice. Among Republican identifiers, 33 percent were pro-choice, 45 percent were pro-life and 22 percent were in the middle.”

    By 2020, Abramowitz continued,

    73 percent of Democratic identifiers took the pro-choice position, while only 17 percent took the pro-life position, with 10 percent in the middle. Among Republicans, 60 percent took the pro-life position while 25 percent took the pro-choice position and 15 percent were in the middle. The difference in support for the pro-choice position was 48 percentage points.

    This split was an even wider, 59 points, among “strong partisans, the group most likely to vote in primary elections,” Abramowitz said.

    Crucially, Abramowitz pointed out, opinions on abortion are also closely connected with racial attitudes:

    Whites who score high on measures of racial resentment and racial grievance are far more likely to support strict limits on abortion than whites who score low on these measures. This is part of a larger picture in which racial attitudes are increasingly linked with opinions on a wide range of disparate issues including social welfare issues, gun control, immigration and even climate change. The fact that opinions on all of these issues are now closely interconnected and connected with racial attitudes is a key factor in the deep polarization within the electorate that contributes to high levels of straight ticket voting and a declining proportion of swing voters.

    Some of the scholars and journalists studying the evolving role of abortion in American politics make the case that key leaders of the conservative movement in the late 1970s and early 1980s — among them Richard Viguerie, Paul Weyrich, Phyllis Schlafly and Jerry Falwell Sr. — were seeking to expand their base beyond those opposed to the civil rights movement. According to this argument, conservative strategists settled on a concerted effort to politicize abortion in part because it dodged the race issue and offered the opportunity to unify conservative Catholics and Evangelicals.

    “The anti-abortion movement has been remarkably successful at convincing observers that the positions individuals take on the abortion issue always follow in a deductive way from their supposed moral principles. They don’t,” Katherine Stewart, the author of the 2019 book “The Power Worshipers, wrote in an email.

    In 1978, the hostile reaction to an I.R.S. proposal to impose taxes on churches running segregated private schools (“seg academies” for the children of white southerners seeking to avoid federally mandated school integration orders) provided the opportunity to mobilize born again and evangelical parishioners through the creation of the Moral Majority. As Stewart argues, Viguerie, Weyrich and others on the right were determined to find an issue that could bring together a much larger constituency:

    As Weyrich understood, building a new movement around the burning issue of defending the tax advantages of racist schools wasn’t going to be a viable strategy on the national stage. “Stop the tax on segregation” just wasn’t going to inspire the kind of broad-based conservative counterrevolution that Weyrich envisioned.

    After long and contentious debate, conservative strategists came to a consensus, Stewart writes: “They landed upon the one surprising word that would supply the key to the political puzzle of the age: ‘abortion.’ ”

    In an email, Stewart expanded on her argument. Abortion opponents

    are more likely to be committed to a patriarchal worldview in which the control of reproduction, and female sexuality in particular, is thought to be central in maintaining a gender hierarchy that (as they see it) sustains the family, which they claim is under threat from secular, modern forces.

    Abortion is among the most intractable issues dividing the parties, with little or no room for compromise.

    On one side, opponents of the procedure argue that “at the moment of fusion of human sperm and egg, a new entity comes into existence which is distinctly human, alive, and an individual organism — a living, and fully human,” as the Center for Human Dignity puts it in the pamphlet “The Best Pro-Life Arguments for Secular Audiences.”

    On the other side, abortion rights proponents contend, in the words of the Center for Reproductive Rights, that “Laws that restrict abortion have the effect and purpose of preventing a woman from exercising any of her human rights or fundamental freedoms on a basis of equality with men.”

    It wasn’t always this way.

    Fifty years ago, the Southern Baptist Convention meeting in St. Louis approved what by the standards of 1971 was a decisively liberal resolution on abortion:

    Be it further resolved, that we call upon Southern Baptists to work for legislation that will allow the possibility of abortion under such conditions as rape, incest, clear evidence of severe fetal deformity, and carefully ascertained evidence of the likelihood of damage to the emotional, mental, and physical health of the mother.

    This year, at a June meeting in Nashville, the Baptist convention demonstrated just how much has changed on the religious right when it comes to abortion. Members endorsed a resolution declaring: “We affirm that the murder of preborn children is a crime against humanity that must be punished equally under the law,” pointedly repudiating past equivocation on the issue:

    We humbly confess and lament any complicity in recognizing exceptions that legitimize or regulate abortion, and of any apathy, in not laboring with the power and influence we have to abolish abortion.

    Randall Balmer, a professor of religion at Dartmouth and the author of a new book, “Bad Faith: Race and the Rise of the Religious Right,” looked at conservative strategizing in a recent op-ed in the Guardian. In his essay, Balmer recounted a 1990 meeting of conservatives in Washington at which Weyrich spoke:

    Remember, Weyrich said animatedly, that the religious right did not come together in response to the Roe decision. No, Weyrich insisted, what got the movement going as a political movement was the attempt on the part of the Internal Revenue Service to rescind the tax-exempt status of Bob Jones University because of its racially discriminatory policies, including a ban on interracial dating that the university maintained until 2000.

    In an email, Balmer wrote, “Opposition to abortion became a convenient diversion — a godsend, really — to distract from what actually motivated their political activism: the defense of racial segregation in evangelical institutions.”

    The same is true, Ballmer continued, of many politicians who have become adamant foes of abortion:

    At a time when open racism was becoming unfashionable, these politicians needed a more high-minded issue, one that would not compel them to surrender their fundamental political orientation. And of course the beauty of defending a fetus is that the fetus demands nothing in return — housing, health care, education — so it’s a fairly low-risk advocacy.

    The reality in the 1970s was that the surging rights movements — rights for African Americans, women’s rights, reproductive rights, gay rights, rights for criminal defendants and for the mentally ill — had set the stage for what would become an explosive conservative reaction, a reaction that by the 1980 elections put Ronald Reagan in the White House for eight years, wrested control of the Senate from Democrats, and elected a coalition of Republicans and conservative Democrats that wielded tremendous power in the House.

    “There is a persistent association between abortion views and ethnoracial exclusion,” Bart Bonikowski, a professor of sociology at N.Y.U., wrote in an email:

    What has happened is that both issue positions have become increasingly sorted by party, so that being anti-choice or holding exclusionary beliefs is a clear marker of Republican affiliation, whereas being pro-choice or defining the nation in inclusive terms signals Democratic identity. The same has happened to a wide range of other issues, from health care and voting rights to mask-wearing and vaccination during the Covid-19 pandemic — across all of these domains, policy views increasingly demarcate partisan identity.

    David Leege, professor emeritus of political science at Notre Dame, has an additional explanation for the process linking racial animosity and abortion. In an email, he wrote:

    For the target populations — evangelical Protestants — whom Viguerie, Weyrich, and Falwell sought to mobilize, racial animosity and abortion attitudes are related but mainly in an indirect way, through aversion toward intellectual elites. The people perceived to be pushing government’s role in equal opportunity and racial integration were now the same as those pushing permissive abortion laws, namely, the highly educated from New England, banking, universities, the Northern cities, and elsewhere.

    In short, Leege wrote, “although the policy domain may differ, the hated people are the same.”

    Michele Margolis, a professor of political science at the University of Pennsylvania, in her 2018 book “From Politics to the Pews: How Partisanship and the Political Environment Shape Religious Identity,” argues that “instead of religiosity driving political attitudes, the shifting political landscape — in which Republicans have become associated with religious values and cultural conservatism to a greater extent than Democrats — could have instead changed partisans’ involvement with their religious communities.”

    If, Margolis continues,

    Republicans and Democrats select into or out of religious communities in part based on their political outlooks, they will find themselves in more politically homogeneous social networks where they encounter less diverse political information. Rather than churches being places where people with different political viewpoints come together, religious communities may become more like echo chambers populated by like-minded partisans.

    The power of partisanship to influence stands on abortion can be seen on the Democratic side by the “host of Democrats who have liberalized their views as they eyed the presidency — Ted Kennedy, Jesse Jackson, Dick Gephardt, Al Gore, and Dennis Kucinich among them” — as John Murdock wrote in the “The Future of the Pro-Life Democrat” in the journal National Affairs.

    Rachel Rebouché, a law professor at Temple, adds nuance to the argument that abortion serves as a roundabout vehicle to appeal to racial conservatives. Instead, she contends that anti-abortion and segregation are “explicit co-travelers, to be sure. But I think they also have different chronological origins and somewhat different original audiences.”

    Abortion, she wrote by email, “along with sex control, gender identities, and patriarchy” are a set of “very strong themes that developed alongside private schools, with their ability to shape views of religion, sex, culture, and race, and alongside welfare reform and criminal law enforcement, which always have had race at the center of those systems.”

    In addition, Rebouché wrote, “Where I see synergies are conservative politics aligning with ideas about sex, sexuality, religion, family.”

    Jefferson Cowie, a historian at Vanderbilt, argued in an email that “there are three dimensions to the question of abortion.”

    The first, he notes,

    is an obvious and genuine concern for fundamentalist Christian morality among the Southern polity. Some are clearly motivated by the obvious: they think abortion is wrong. Such views are a minority in this country, but they are highly concentrated in the South.

    The second, he continued, is

    the politicization of the issue to rile up the electorate. This is less about policy and more about pure and simple voting harvesting. Obviously, there is very little support for neonatal care or curbing the death penalty, so “pro-life” is a ridiculous misnomer. They are less pro-life than they are pro-political power — their own.

    The third, in Cowie’s view, is

    The overlooked part: the deep resonance of state and regional sovereignty. Regional politics is still defined by a resistance to federal authority. If the federal government can run any aspect of regional culture or politics, the logic goes, then they can run it all. This has been a concern on just about everything since Reconstruction, including lynch law, fair employment practices, the Brown Decision, busing, prayer in schools, and abortion. This issue runs deep — consider the career of George Wallace who liked to say the federal government has put the courts in schools and taken God out. This is the remnants of the Lost Cause still blowing in the political winds.

    Darren Dochuk, a professor of history at Notre Dame and the author of “From Bible Belt to Sunbelt: Plain-Folk Religion, Grassroots Politics and the Rise of Evangelical Conservatism,” argued in an email that the strength of the opposition to abortion in the South grows out of the unique tensions in the region between notions of manhood and evangelical attempts to control the sins of men:

    There has always been a tension in southern life between the ideals of rugged masculinity and expectations of evangelical propriety. In the early twentieth century, preachers and earnest parishioners did their part to reign in the worst excesses of southern manhood, be they related to drink or sex or violence; waging war on sin was their calling, protecting home and hearth, and securing Christian male headship of them, their main concern. This tension was also a dynamic one in that excessive sin also led to heightened evangelistic fervor; the greater the sin the greater the salvation, meaning masculine indiscretions were in subtle ways allowed, even celebrated, among the churchly crowd as justification for an equally aggressive response.

    “Since the late 1970s, however,” Dochuk wrote,

    Southern evangelicalism as a whole has become more welcoming of the type of rugged masculinity that the southern sinners of yesteryear often displayed. For theological as well as cultural and political reasons, the southern evangelical majority, whose prescripts and sentiments now pervade all corners of southern rural culture, has increasingly embraced a muscular Christianity that deems protection of home and hearth and all facets of family values, and notions of life and liberty, associated with them a cause worth waging with all the force and abandon required.

    This accommodation is driven, in Dochuk’s view, by the fact that the enemy is now, in their view, “an effeminate liberalism and its ‘secular humanism’,” which, in turn, means that

    even those leaders who might not display Christ-like temperaments or norms are welcome in the fold. In a sense, southern evangelicals have jettisoned the New Testament for the Old Testament — revival for societal reconstruction — and carved out plenty of room for the rampaging politician who can impose his will (see Trump as well as lesser lights) in order to remake the nation in their image.

    In this milieu, Dochuk observed,

    The swashbuckling southern rural politician enjoys more freedom than ever to play hard even as he decries the sins of abortion and feminism; as saint and sinner he’s been granted the right and freedom to lead the family values charge against Washington and its soft liberal elite.

    In milder terms, Rebecca Kreitzer, a professor of public policy at the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill, and two colleagues, argue in “The Evolution of Morality Policy Debate: Moralization and Demoralization” that as an issue becomes both polarized and “moralized,” it become more difficult, if not impossible, to resolve. In contrast, when an issue become “demoralized,” as has been the case with gay marriage over the past two decades, it become increasingly likely to reach bipartisan consensus.

    For 20 years, Gallup has asked “Regardless of whether or not you think it should be legal, please tell me whether you personally believe that in general gay and lesbian relations are morally acceptable or morally wrong.” In 2001, 53 percent said morally wrong and 40 percent said morally acceptable. By 2021, however, 69 percent said gay and lesbian relations were morally acceptable compared with 30 percent who described such relations as morally unacceptable. The issue has been “demoralized” and has effectively disappeared from the national debate.

    No such luck in the case of abortion. Over the same 20 years, Gallup asked whether abortion is morally acceptable or unacceptable. In 2001, 42 percent said the operation is morally acceptable and 45 percent said morally unacceptable. Over those two decades, the numbers varied modestly year to year but effectively changed very little: in 2021, 47 percent said acceptable, 46 percent said unacceptable.

    The bottom line: for at least the medium term, the abortion issue is here to stay. If anything, the Supreme Court 5-4 decision on Sept. 1 to refuse to block a Texas law prohibiting most abortions demonstrated that the issue will remain on center stage with no resolution in sight. "
    The best way to stop a bad guy with a gun is to make sure he doesn’t get a gun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mqt View Post
    I feel in some ways the small percentage of Southerners owning slaves makes it worse. All the carnage for the Southern Elite to keep owning humans.
    Yes, the global aristocracy always thinks they are better than the rest of the world.

    We are facing that same problem today.
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    These articles acting like the 1971 SBC are proof of pro lifers becoming extremists always amuse me. I'm not sure if they're just incapable of understanding that resentment against those bureaucrats selling out the laity's beliefs is what caused the leadership turnover, or they're just dishonest and expect sheep to consume uncritically because it reinforces their beliefs.

    Trying to tie racism to the pro life movement is entertaining as well, considering the demographic breakdown of abortion victims and the eugenic roots of the pro abortion movement.
    Go get him!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mqt View Post
    I feel in some ways the small percentage of Southerners owning slaves makes it worse. All the carnage for the Southern Elite to keep owning humans.
    Unless, as logic and historical facts would dictate, there was much more to it than the elite owning humans.
    Go get him!

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    Yeah, he never brought up the tariffs of the 1830s.
    Or disavowed Joy Reid
    .
    Or how mean people were to the south source of free labor.

    yeah we can discount Edsall

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    "I am a victim, I will tell you. I am a victim."

    "I am your retribution."

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    Quote Originally Posted by nsacpi View Post
    Its very important to wipe history if you want to take over.

    Should be a lesson for us but of course it won't be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 57Brave View Post
    I have always felt a hand in hand relationship -- anti-abortion / protect the monuments movements

    this interesting read from NYT 9/16/21
    ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


    By Thomas B. Edsall
    "


    As recently as 1984, abortion was not a deeply partisan issue.

    “The difference in support for the pro-choice position was a mere six percentage points,” Alan Abramowitz, a political scientist at Emory University, told me by email. “40 percent of Democratic identifiers were pro-life, while 39 percent were pro-choice. Among Republican identifiers, 33 percent were pro-choice, 45 percent were pro-life and 22 percent were in the middle.”

    By 2020, Abramowitz continued,

    73 percent of Democratic identifiers took the pro-choice position, while only 17 percent took the pro-life position, with 10 percent in the middle. Among Republicans, 60 percent took the pro-life position while 25 percent took the pro-choice position and 15 percent were in the middle. The difference in support for the pro-choice position was 48 percentage points.

    This split was an even wider, 59 points, among “strong partisans, the group most likely to vote in primary elections,” Abramowitz said.

    Crucially, Abramowitz pointed out, opinions on abortion are also closely connected with racial attitudes:

    Whites who score high on measures of racial resentment and racial grievance are far more likely to support strict limits on abortion than whites who score low on these measures. This is part of a larger picture in which racial attitudes are increasingly linked with opinions on a wide range of disparate issues including social welfare issues, gun control, immigration and even climate change. The fact that opinions on all of these issues are now closely interconnected and connected with racial attitudes is a key factor in the deep polarization within the electorate that contributes to high levels of straight ticket voting and a declining proportion of swing voters.

    Some of the scholars and journalists studying the evolving role of abortion in American politics make the case that key leaders of the conservative movement in the late 1970s and early 1980s — among them Richard Viguerie, Paul Weyrich, Phyllis Schlafly and Jerry Falwell Sr. — were seeking to expand their base beyond those opposed to the civil rights movement. According to this argument, conservative strategists settled on a concerted effort to politicize abortion in part because it dodged the race issue and offered the opportunity to unify conservative Catholics and Evangelicals.

    “The anti-abortion movement has been remarkably successful at convincing observers that the positions individuals take on the abortion issue always follow in a deductive way from their supposed moral principles. They don’t,” Katherine Stewart, the author of the 2019 book “The Power Worshipers, wrote in an email.

    In 1978, the hostile reaction to an I.R.S. proposal to impose taxes on churches running segregated private schools (“seg academies” for the children of white southerners seeking to avoid federally mandated school integration orders) provided the opportunity to mobilize born again and evangelical parishioners through the creation of the Moral Majority. As Stewart argues, Viguerie, Weyrich and others on the right were determined to find an issue that could bring together a much larger constituency:

    As Weyrich understood, building a new movement around the burning issue of defending the tax advantages of racist schools wasn’t going to be a viable strategy on the national stage. “Stop the tax on segregation” just wasn’t going to inspire the kind of broad-based conservative counterrevolution that Weyrich envisioned.

    After long and contentious debate, conservative strategists came to a consensus, Stewart writes: “They landed upon the one surprising word that would supply the key to the political puzzle of the age: ‘abortion.’ ”

    In an email, Stewart expanded on her argument. Abortion opponents

    are more likely to be committed to a patriarchal worldview in which the control of reproduction, and female sexuality in particular, is thought to be central in maintaining a gender hierarchy that (as they see it) sustains the family, which they claim is under threat from secular, modern forces.

    Abortion is among the most intractable issues dividing the parties, with little or no room for compromise.

    On one side, opponents of the procedure argue that “at the moment of fusion of human sperm and egg, a new entity comes into existence which is distinctly human, alive, and an individual organism — a living, and fully human,” as the Center for Human Dignity puts it in the pamphlet “The Best Pro-Life Arguments for Secular Audiences.”

    On the other side, abortion rights proponents contend, in the words of the Center for Reproductive Rights, that “Laws that restrict abortion have the effect and purpose of preventing a woman from exercising any of her human rights or fundamental freedoms on a basis of equality with men.”

    It wasn’t always this way.

    Fifty years ago, the Southern Baptist Convention meeting in St. Louis approved what by the standards of 1971 was a decisively liberal resolution on abortion:

    Be it further resolved, that we call upon Southern Baptists to work for legislation that will allow the possibility of abortion under such conditions as rape, incest, clear evidence of severe fetal deformity, and carefully ascertained evidence of the likelihood of damage to the emotional, mental, and physical health of the mother.

    This year, at a June meeting in Nashville, the Baptist convention demonstrated just how much has changed on the religious right when it comes to abortion. Members endorsed a resolution declaring: “We affirm that the murder of preborn children is a crime against humanity that must be punished equally under the law,” pointedly repudiating past equivocation on the issue:

    We humbly confess and lament any complicity in recognizing exceptions that legitimize or regulate abortion, and of any apathy, in not laboring with the power and influence we have to abolish abortion.

    Randall Balmer, a professor of religion at Dartmouth and the author of a new book, “Bad Faith: Race and the Rise of the Religious Right,” looked at conservative strategizing in a recent op-ed in the Guardian. In his essay, Balmer recounted a 1990 meeting of conservatives in Washington at which Weyrich spoke:

    Remember, Weyrich said animatedly, that the religious right did not come together in response to the Roe decision. No, Weyrich insisted, what got the movement going as a political movement was the attempt on the part of the Internal Revenue Service to rescind the tax-exempt status of Bob Jones University because of its racially discriminatory policies, including a ban on interracial dating that the university maintained until 2000.

    In an email, Balmer wrote, “Opposition to abortion became a convenient diversion — a godsend, really — to distract from what actually motivated their political activism: the defense of racial segregation in evangelical institutions.”

    The same is true, Ballmer continued, of many politicians who have become adamant foes of abortion:

    At a time when open racism was becoming unfashionable, these politicians needed a more high-minded issue, one that would not compel them to surrender their fundamental political orientation. And of course the beauty of defending a fetus is that the fetus demands nothing in return — housing, health care, education — so it’s a fairly low-risk advocacy.

    The reality in the 1970s was that the surging rights movements — rights for African Americans, women’s rights, reproductive rights, gay rights, rights for criminal defendants and for the mentally ill — had set the stage for what would become an explosive conservative reaction, a reaction that by the 1980 elections put Ronald Reagan in the White House for eight years, wrested control of the Senate from Democrats, and elected a coalition of Republicans and conservative Democrats that wielded tremendous power in the House.

    “There is a persistent association between abortion views and ethnoracial exclusion,” Bart Bonikowski, a professor of sociology at N.Y.U., wrote in an email:

    What has happened is that both issue positions have become increasingly sorted by party, so that being anti-choice or holding exclusionary beliefs is a clear marker of Republican affiliation, whereas being pro-choice or defining the nation in inclusive terms signals Democratic identity. The same has happened to a wide range of other issues, from health care and voting rights to mask-wearing and vaccination during the Covid-19 pandemic — across all of these domains, policy views increasingly demarcate partisan identity.

    David Leege, professor emeritus of political science at Notre Dame, has an additional explanation for the process linking racial animosity and abortion. In an email, he wrote:

    For the target populations — evangelical Protestants — whom Viguerie, Weyrich, and Falwell sought to mobilize, racial animosity and abortion attitudes are related but mainly in an indirect way, through aversion toward intellectual elites. The people perceived to be pushing government’s role in equal opportunity and racial integration were now the same as those pushing permissive abortion laws, namely, the highly educated from New England, banking, universities, the Northern cities, and elsewhere.

    In short, Leege wrote, “although the policy domain may differ, the hated people are the same.”

    Michele Margolis, a professor of political science at the University of Pennsylvania, in her 2018 book “From Politics to the Pews: How Partisanship and the Political Environment Shape Religious Identity,” argues that “instead of religiosity driving political attitudes, the shifting political landscape — in which Republicans have become associated with religious values and cultural conservatism to a greater extent than Democrats — could have instead changed partisans’ involvement with their religious communities.”

    If, Margolis continues,

    Republicans and Democrats select into or out of religious communities in part based on their political outlooks, they will find themselves in more politically homogeneous social networks where they encounter less diverse political information. Rather than churches being places where people with different political viewpoints come together, religious communities may become more like echo chambers populated by like-minded partisans.

    The power of partisanship to influence stands on abortion can be seen on the Democratic side by the “host of Democrats who have liberalized their views as they eyed the presidency — Ted Kennedy, Jesse Jackson, Dick Gephardt, Al Gore, and Dennis Kucinich among them” — as John Murdock wrote in the “The Future of the Pro-Life Democrat” in the journal National Affairs.

    Rachel Rebouché, a law professor at Temple, adds nuance to the argument that abortion serves as a roundabout vehicle to appeal to racial conservatives. Instead, she contends that anti-abortion and segregation are “explicit co-travelers, to be sure. But I think they also have different chronological origins and somewhat different original audiences.”

    Abortion, she wrote by email, “along with sex control, gender identities, and patriarchy” are a set of “very strong themes that developed alongside private schools, with their ability to shape views of religion, sex, culture, and race, and alongside welfare reform and criminal law enforcement, which always have had race at the center of those systems.”

    In addition, Rebouché wrote, “Where I see synergies are conservative politics aligning with ideas about sex, sexuality, religion, family.”

    Jefferson Cowie, a historian at Vanderbilt, argued in an email that “there are three dimensions to the question of abortion.”

    The first, he notes,

    is an obvious and genuine concern for fundamentalist Christian morality among the Southern polity. Some are clearly motivated by the obvious: they think abortion is wrong. Such views are a minority in this country, but they are highly concentrated in the South.

    The second, he continued, is

    the politicization of the issue to rile up the electorate. This is less about policy and more about pure and simple voting harvesting. Obviously, there is very little support for neonatal care or curbing the death penalty, so “pro-life” is a ridiculous misnomer. They are less pro-life than they are pro-political power — their own.

    The third, in Cowie’s view, is

    The overlooked part: the deep resonance of state and regional sovereignty. Regional politics is still defined by a resistance to federal authority. If the federal government can run any aspect of regional culture or politics, the logic goes, then they can run it all. This has been a concern on just about everything since Reconstruction, including lynch law, fair employment practices, the Brown Decision, busing, prayer in schools, and abortion. This issue runs deep — consider the career of George Wallace who liked to say the federal government has put the courts in schools and taken God out. This is the remnants of the Lost Cause still blowing in the political winds.

    Darren Dochuk, a professor of history at Notre Dame and the author of “From Bible Belt to Sunbelt: Plain-Folk Religion, Grassroots Politics and the Rise of Evangelical Conservatism,” argued in an email that the strength of the opposition to abortion in the South grows out of the unique tensions in the region between notions of manhood and evangelical attempts to control the sins of men:

    There has always been a tension in southern life between the ideals of rugged masculinity and expectations of evangelical propriety. In the early twentieth century, preachers and earnest parishioners did their part to reign in the worst excesses of southern manhood, be they related to drink or sex or violence; waging war on sin was their calling, protecting home and hearth, and securing Christian male headship of them, their main concern. This tension was also a dynamic one in that excessive sin also led to heightened evangelistic fervor; the greater the sin the greater the salvation, meaning masculine indiscretions were in subtle ways allowed, even celebrated, among the churchly crowd as justification for an equally aggressive response.

    “Since the late 1970s, however,” Dochuk wrote,

    Southern evangelicalism as a whole has become more welcoming of the type of rugged masculinity that the southern sinners of yesteryear often displayed. For theological as well as cultural and political reasons, the southern evangelical majority, whose prescripts and sentiments now pervade all corners of southern rural culture, has increasingly embraced a muscular Christianity that deems protection of home and hearth and all facets of family values, and notions of life and liberty, associated with them a cause worth waging with all the force and abandon required.

    This accommodation is driven, in Dochuk’s view, by the fact that the enemy is now, in their view, “an effeminate liberalism and its ‘secular humanism’,” which, in turn, means that

    even those leaders who might not display Christ-like temperaments or norms are welcome in the fold. In a sense, southern evangelicals have jettisoned the New Testament for the Old Testament — revival for societal reconstruction — and carved out plenty of room for the rampaging politician who can impose his will (see Trump as well as lesser lights) in order to remake the nation in their image.

    In this milieu, Dochuk observed,

    The swashbuckling southern rural politician enjoys more freedom than ever to play hard even as he decries the sins of abortion and feminism; as saint and sinner he’s been granted the right and freedom to lead the family values charge against Washington and its soft liberal elite.

    In milder terms, Rebecca Kreitzer, a professor of public policy at the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill, and two colleagues, argue in “The Evolution of Morality Policy Debate: Moralization and Demoralization” that as an issue becomes both polarized and “moralized,” it become more difficult, if not impossible, to resolve. In contrast, when an issue become “demoralized,” as has been the case with gay marriage over the past two decades, it become increasingly likely to reach bipartisan consensus.

    For 20 years, Gallup has asked “Regardless of whether or not you think it should be legal, please tell me whether you personally believe that in general gay and lesbian relations are morally acceptable or morally wrong.” In 2001, 53 percent said morally wrong and 40 percent said morally acceptable. By 2021, however, 69 percent said gay and lesbian relations were morally acceptable compared with 30 percent who described such relations as morally unacceptable. The issue has been “demoralized” and has effectively disappeared from the national debate.

    No such luck in the case of abortion. Over the same 20 years, Gallup asked whether abortion is morally acceptable or unacceptable. In 2001, 42 percent said the operation is morally acceptable and 45 percent said morally unacceptable. Over those two decades, the numbers varied modestly year to year but effectively changed very little: in 2021, 47 percent said acceptable, 46 percent said unacceptable.

    The bottom line: for at least the medium term, the abortion issue is here to stay. If anything, the Supreme Court 5-4 decision on Sept. 1 to refuse to block a Texas law prohibiting most abortions demonstrated that the issue will remain on center stage with no resolution in sight. "
    That is one of the more pompous articles I've ever had the misfortune to read. If you ever want to get an idea what the view is like from an ivory tower, read that article.

    I love how this north eastern, ivy league elite is lecturing about what life is like in the south. I honestly think this guy would be surprised if he came down here and saw Outback Steakhouses and Targets instead of Mr. Drucker's General Store and the local moonshine still.

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    Ah, " the northeastern , ivy league elite "
    Now where have we heard that phrase before ... hmm

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    Quote Originally Posted by 57Brave View Post
    Ah, " the northeastern , ivy league elite "
    Now where have we heard that phrase before ... hmm
    It applies to this guy. Born in Cambridge, MA, graduated from Brown (ivy league) and Boston University, teaches at Columbia (also ivy league). It doesn't get much more northeastern elite than this guy.

    I just find it funny that he's speaking authoritatively on southern culture and what it's like down here. Listen to this:

    "Southern evangelicalism as a whole has become more welcoming of the type of rugged masculinity that the southern sinners of yesteryear often displayed. For theological as well as cultural and political reasons, the southern evangelical majority, whose prescripts and sentiments now pervade all corners of southern rural culture, has increasingly embraced a muscular Christianity that deems protection of home and hearth and all facets of family values, and notions of life and liberty, associated with them a cause worth waging with all the force and abandon required."

    I don't even know how you write a paragraph like that without collapsing under the weight of your own ego. Also, it employs generalities and stereotypes blindly. If you read that you'd expect your average southerner to be sitting by their fire in the evening reading the Bible by candlelight after a long day of squirrel hunting and hay baling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by striker42 View Post
    If you read that you'd expect your average southerner to be sitting by their fire in the evening reading the Bible by candlelight after a long day of squirrel hunting and hay baling.
    Wait...you guys don't do that too?
    Go get him!

    Founding member of the Whiny Little Bitches and Pricks Club

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    1) Mr Edsall appears to have bumped a nerve.

    2) I have lived in the rural south real close to 50 years

    3) let me guess, you are a born and bred southern anti abortion white male (R).
    ‐-------
    have always recognized the hand in hand anti abortion - pro monument movements.

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    Change my mind !!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 57Brave View Post
    Change my mind !!
    This is simply not possible
    "I can't fix my life, but I can fix the world" said the socialist

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    My formative years were in a part of Florida that is not culturally southern. So I can't comment one way or another.

    But I do think we need more statues and memorials to honor the 100,000 white southerners who fought for and who stayed true to the Union and the principles upon which the country was founded, many at great personal cost.
    Last edited by nsacpi; 10-08-2021 at 12:54 PM.
    "I am a victim, I will tell you. I am a victim."

    "I am your retribution."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaw View Post
    Wait...you guys don't do that too?
    Of course not. We use light from the fire to read. We can't afford candles down here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 57Brave View Post
    1) Mr Edsall appears to have bumped a nerve.

    2) I have lived in the rural south real close to 50 years

    3) let me guess, you are a born and bred southern anti abortion white male (R).
    ‐-------
    have always recognized the hand in hand anti abortion - pro monument movements.
    Any pompous blowhard like that is going to strike a nerve with me. Had he just laid out his theory without engaging in spurious stereotypes or ridiculous prose then I would have simply shaken my head and moved on. That guy's writing though is absurd. And I'm someone who reads the writing of highly educated, highly intelligent, and often highly egotistical people for a living.

    I've lived in suburban Atlanta all my life experiencing both the urbanity of Atlanta and life in the rural areas. If you can't see how different life is here than this guy is spinning it then I advise you get out more and talk to people. This is especially true with more and more millennials taking the reigns of society.

    As for my views on abortion, I've spoken at length on them here. I've actually taken the time to sit back and think critically on the issue. I've come to the conclusion that the central question is not whether abortion is right or wrong, it's when a fetus gains legal and moral rights. There is no objective answer to that question. It is literally something you have to decide for yourself based on your life and personal experience. From that decision, logic takes you to the point of a moral stance either for or against abortion. It's either invading a woman's autonomy over her body or it's murder. Most don't even realize they made that initial decision. Many just make an assumption.

    I don't personally have strong feelings one way or the other on when a fetus gains rights and moral obligations. I have personal opinions but I recognize that they're just that, my personal opinions and others who disagree aren't evil or immoral, they've just reached a different conclusion.

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    As for a correlation between Confederate monuments and abortion, of course there is. The support for Confederate monuments will by and large be from people living in the states that rebelled. Many people have ancestors that fought for the Confederacy and it's a very normal to want to think your ancestors were good people. These states also overlap with more conservative areas of the country. So a lot of conservatives who believe abortion is wrong are people who live in rebel states and whose ancestors fought for the Confederacy. No great mystery.

    If you go talk to a conservative living in Arizona, they might also be against abortion but probably don't care a lick about Confederate monuments. It's not an important issue to them.

    You'll probably find a stronger correlation between people who use the word "y'all" and support for Confederate monuments. So that means "y'all" is racist?

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