Confederate Monuments

[thethe]

sturg you're doing great work in this thread man. tremendous.

When your opposition is trying to limit freedom you know you are on the right side. Keep up the good fight Sturg!

[Julio3000]

Wow, we just learned a bit of history without a plaque on a memorial statue to read it from. I wasn't aware you could do it that way.

[Julio3000]

Here's another interesting historical nugget:

General John J Pershing's nickname "Black Jack" was a sanitized version of his original nickname, "N***** Jack," given to him by resentful West Point cadets, based on his leadership of a unit of Buffalo Soldiers earlier in his career.

[acesfull86]

I'd be fine with going back to New Amsterdam if we can also copy the weed laws of old Amsterdam.

Cuomo, Baltimore, the Red Sox owner...shallow virtue signaling is all the rage these days.

[Julio3000]

I'd be fine with going back to New Amsterdam if we can also copy the weed laws of old Amsterdam.

Cuomo, Baltimore, the Red Sox owner...shallow virtue signaling is all the rage these days.

So let's do something less shallow by honestly discussing the legacy at issue.

Let's also acknowledge that glib assertions of hypocrisy and silly reductio ad absurdum is shallow virtue signaling to a different audience.

[sturg33]

So let's do something less shallow by honestly discussing the legacy at issue.

Let's also acknowledge that glib assertions of hypocrisy and silly reductio ad absurdum is shallow virtue signaling to a different audience.

Hey... you assured us there would be no slope.

[Jaw]

Wow, we just learned a bit of history without a plaque on a memorial statue to read it from. I wasn't aware you could do it that way.

Information has never been easier to find than it is now, it truly is amazing. I found a couple of quotes in the past few days that I found relevant and interesting, regarding the Confederacy and slavery:

"There are at the present moment many colored men in the Confederate army doing duty not only as cooks, servants and laborers, but as real soldiers, having muskets on their shoulders, and bullets in their pockets, ready to shoot down loyal troops, and do all that soldiers may to destroy the Federal Government and build up that of the traitors and rebels" ~ Frederick Douglass

"For more than two years, negroes had been extensively employed in belligerent operations by the Confederacy. They had been embodied and drilled as Rebel soldiers, and had paraded with White troops at a time when this would not have been tolerated in the armies of the Union." ~ Horace Greeley

"Over 3,000 negroes must be included in this number (of Confederate troops). These were clad in all kinds of uniforms, not only in cast-off or captured United States uniforms, but in coats with Southern buttons, State buttons, etc. These were shabby, but not shabbier or seedier than those worn by white men in rebel ranks. Most of the negroes had arms, rifles, muskets, sabres, bowie-knives, dirks, etc. They were supplied, in many instances, with knapsacks, haversacks, canteens, etc., and were manifestly an integral portion of the Southern Confederacy Army. They were seen riding on horses and mules, driving wagons, riding on caissons, in ambulances, with the staff of Generals, and promiscuously mixed up with all the rebel horde" ~ Dr. Lewis Steiner

Obviously these black rebel soldiers were only fighting to preserve slavery, just like Robert E. Lee and the rest.

[Julio3000]

Hey... you assured us there would be no slope.

The way you posit it, absolutely not. I mean, you've essentially equated Al Sharpton suggesting defunding the Jefferson Memorial with the utter eradication of white culture.

[Julio3000]

Information has never been easier to find than it is now, it truly is amazing. I found a couple of quotes in the past few days that I found relevant and interesting, regarding the Confederacy and slavery:

"There are at the present moment many colored men in the Confederate army doing duty not only as cooks, servants and laborers, but as real soldiers, having muskets on their shoulders, and bullets in their pockets, ready to shoot down loyal troops, and do all that soldiers may to destroy the Federal Government and build up that of the traitors and rebels" ~ Frederick Douglass

"For more than two years, negroes had been extensively employed in belligerent operations by the Confederacy. They had been embodied and drilled as Rebel soldiers, and had paraded with White troops at a time when this would not have been tolerated in the armies of the Union." ~ Horace Greeley

"Over 3,000 negroes must be included in this number (of Confederate troops). These were clad in all kinds of uniforms, not only in cast-off or captured United States uniforms, but in coats with Southern buttons, State buttons, etc. These were shabby, but not shabbier or seedier than those worn by white men in rebel ranks. Most of the negroes had arms, rifles, muskets, sabres, bowie-knives, dirks, etc. They were supplied, in many instances, with knapsacks, haversacks, canteens, etc., and were manifestly an integral portion of the Southern Confederacy Army. They were seen riding on horses and mules, driving wagons, riding on caissons, in ambulances, with the staff of Generals, and promiscuously mixed up with all the rebel horde" ~ Dr. Lewis Steiner

Obviously these black rebel soldiers were only fighting to preserve slavery, just like Robert E. Lee and the rest.

Um, explain to me how they weren't?

[Jaw]

Wait, what? You posit that these black soldiers were fighting for the South only because they wanted to preserve the enslavement of other blacks?

[sturg33]

The way you posit it, absolutely not. I mean, you've essentially equated Al Sharpton suggesting defunding the Jefferson Memorial with the utter eradication of white culture.

Oh... is that what I've done?

I'd be willing to wager we see a founder's monument taken down in the next 18 months

[thethe]

Oh... is that what I've done?

I'd be willing to wager we see a founder's monument taken down in the next 18 months

Shadow talks of destroying Mount Rushmore as well...

[Julio3000]

Wait, what? You posit that these black soldiers were fighting for the South only because they wanted to preserve the enslavement of other blacks?

If they were fighting for the confederacy, they were fighting to preserve slavery, by definition.

There are multiple reasons why black southerners might have fought for the confederacy, and they're freely available to read, if you care to. Here's a brief summary of one story:

Douglass corroborated Johnson’s story. He published in the March 1862 issue of Douglass’ Monthly a brief autobiography of John Parker, one of the black Confederates at Manassas. A Virginia slave, Parker was sent to Richmond to build batteries and breastworks. After completing this job, he and his fellow slaves were ordered to Manassas “to fight,” as he said. He was put in an artillery unit with three other black men. On Sunday, July 21, “we opened fire about 10:00 in the morning; couldn’t see the Yankees at all and only fired at random.”

During the battle, Parker said, he worried about dying, hoped for a Union victory and thought of fleeing to the Union side. “We wished to our hearts that the Yankees would whip us. … We would have run over to the other side but our officers would have shot us if we had made the attempt.” He and his fellow slaves had been promised their freedom “and money besides” if they fought. “None of us believed them; we only fought because we had to.”

Parker remained on the battlefield for two weeks, burying the dead, bayoneting the wounded to put them out of their misery, and stripping the Yankees of clothes and valuables. His burial duty was, like his impressment as a laborer and gunner, under orders and the threat of being shot.

Parker’s ticket to freedom was the first Confiscation Act, passed on Aug. 6, 1861, which authorized the Union Army to confiscate slaves aiding the Confederate war effort. Although the act did not mention freedom, it was in effect the first emancipation act, as the historian James Oakes has noted, because it prohibited officers from returning “contrabands” into slavery.

Parker fled for Union lines and in early 1862 reached Gen. Nathaniel Banks’ division near Frederick, Md. Union soldiers “welcomed” him. They gave him a suit of clothes and plenty to eat and asked him to return to Virginia as a Union scout. Parker refused, saying that he “was bound for the North,” but told them everything he knew about rebel positions. They gave him provisions, a contraband pass and a letter of introduction to a minister in New York City who could help him. He arrived safely in New York and began lecturing on “The War and Its Causes” for 10 cents a ticket, according to an advertisement for his lecture.

[bravesnumberone]

If they were fighting for the confederacy, they were fighting to preserve slavery, by definition.

There are multiple reasons why black southerners might have fought for the confederacy, and they're freely available to read, if you care to. Here's a brief summary of one story:

Douglass corroborated Johnson’s story. He published in the March 1862 issue of Douglass’ Monthly a brief autobiography of John Parker, one of the black Confederates at Manassas. A Virginia slave, Parker was sent to Richmond to build batteries and breastworks. After completing this job, he and his fellow slaves were ordered to Manassas “to fight,” as he said. He was put in an artillery unit with three other black men. On Sunday, July 21, “we opened fire about 10:00 in the morning; couldn’t see the Yankees at all and only fired at random.”

During the battle, Parker said, he worried about dying, hoped for a Union victory and thought of fleeing to the Union side. “We wished to our hearts that the Yankees would whip us. … We would have run over to the other side but our officers would have shot us if we had made the attempt.” He and his fellow slaves had been promised their freedom “and money besides” if they fought. “None of us believed them; we only fought because we had to.”

Parker remained on the battlefield for two weeks, burying the dead, bayoneting the wounded to put them out of their misery, and stripping the Yankees of clothes and valuables. His burial duty was, like his impressment as a laborer and gunner, under orders and the threat of being shot.

Parker’s ticket to freedom was the first Confiscation Act, passed on Aug. 6, 1861, which authorized the Union Army to confiscate slaves aiding the Confederate war effort. Although the act did not mention freedom, it was in effect the first emancipation act, as the historian James Oakes has noted, because it prohibited officers from returning “contrabands” into slavery.

Parker fled for Union lines and in early 1862 reached Gen. Nathaniel Banks’ division near Frederick, Md. Union soldiers “welcomed” him. They gave him a suit of clothes and plenty to eat and asked him to return to Virginia as a Union scout. Parker refused, saying that he “was bound for the North,” but told them everything he knew about rebel positions. They gave him provisions, a contraband pass and a letter of introduction to a minister in New York City who could help him. He arrived safely in New York and began lecturing on “The War and Its Causes” for 10 cents a ticket, according to an advertisement for his lecture.

So wait, those black soldiers for the confederacy were ordered by white people to do something? That's odd.

[Julio3000]

I read about a historical monument of sorts in Germany. In Berlin, there is a preserved section of the wall which used to divide East/West Berlin. Fred Kaplan writes:

"The preserved stretch of wall near the old Gestapo headquarters is the sort of monument to history that Berlin cultivates and that Trump doesn’t remotely comprehend. There is a viewing stand that overlooks the structure, and standing there, you realize that the wall was more than merely a wall. It was two sets of walls, each nearly 12 feet high, surrounded by a ditch to keep bulldozers at bay and separated by a 20-foot “no man’s land”—littered with barbed wire, illuminated by spotlights from a watchtower (there were once 302 of these towers), where guards could, and often did, shoot to kill anyone who managed to climb the first wall before he reached the second.

This is a true monument of the regime and the era that Berlin authorities have deemed worth memorializing—not to romanticize the past but to present its dimensions starkly, as something to gasp at in horror and to avoid repeating. This monument is not beautiful, nor should it be."

The ugliest moments in our history shouldn't be sanitized by romanticized equestrian statues with love poems to the Lost Cause. At least 700,000 died in the Civil War, and there's nothing romantic about that. FWIW I have mixed feelings about that kind of mythmaking in any war memorial, it's just that the Civil War is particularly egregious.

[Jaw]

So now they were given guns and orders against their will?

"You slaves, take these rifles and shoot Yankees. And whatever you do, don't shoot us. We're trusting you."

Seems legit.

[bravesnumberone]

So now they were given guns and orders against their will?

"You slaves, take these rifles and shoot Yankees. And whatever you do, don't shoot us. We're trusting you."

Seems legit.

Yeah I know right? Shooting a commander with a whole bunch of other white guys right there to kill you dead in your steps and hang you makes a lot of sense.

[Julio3000]

So now they were given guns and orders against their will?

"You slaves, take these rifles and shoot Yankees. And whatever you do, don't shoot us. We're trusting you."

Seems legit.

Hmm. I wonder if you'd hazard a guess to whether or not any of these guys were ever in a position where they outnumbered whites or weren't surrounded by whites with guns.

[sturg33]

If the confederacy is all about slavery and thus should be removed from everything ex-museum, then so should FDR.

Let's just be consistent, everyone.

[Oklahomahawk]

Hmm. I wonder if you'd hazard a guess to whether or not any of these guys were ever in a position where they outnumbered whites or weren't surrounded by whites with guns.

Not that it matters at this point but here's an article that addresses at least most of the various sides of this question. Here