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Thread: Confederate Monuments

  1. #161
    It's OVER 5,000! Jaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bravesnumberone View Post
    I'm sorry that I've misunderstood everything. I now realize it was strictly because of federal government overreach and the folks who organized the protest last weekend were there to protect the honor of the Confederacy, Gen. Lee, their ancestors, etc.

    But I need you to clear something up for me. Where do the genocidal racists and anti-semites fit into all of this? They sure looked welcome there by the organizers. Unite the Right.
    I was addressing the people memorialized in the statues, not defending the white supremacists. I agree that the crowd protesting their removal last weekend was scum. Some good people may have shown up initially, but I can't believe that any of them stayed once the nazi act started.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AerchAngel View Post
    This is directed at Jaw, Kr and Thethe because they are the ones that seem bothered by it.

    I am okay with them assembling to march and defend Lee, if that was their agenda, but since a lot of these White Supremacist are Northerners and raised in the North and their families probably the same have NO connection whatsoever to Lee nor the South and their history. Methinks they wanted to show that white men is superior by chanting that crap whatever they are chanting and I bet 90% saw my black ass if you ask them would they shoot me, beat me, or kick me out of country, or none of the above, the none of the above would barely crack 5%. I should also state that change out me and put any minority in there and it wouldn't raise the needle that much. That is what people on here are decrying is their ideology has not place in this world. How dare they think this land is theirs when they killed a lot of my family black and American Indian and stole it. What if I say take your lily white ass back to Europe from whence you came from, they wouldn't like it that much. That is how much they think, soulless bastards that they are.
    I agree with you per usual AA, I have no use for that crowd that was at the protest.

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    Perhaps the men who weren't fighting for White Supremacy in the 1860s should have rejected the ones who were.

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    A Chip Off the Old Rock Julio3000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaw View Post
    I find that inscription indefensible and would have no problem with the removal of the statue.
    There is a big difference, in my mind at least, between many of the people who fought for the Confederacy, and these guys that just wanted to kill black people.
    But this didn't happen for thrill of killing black people. They were doing it for the express purpose of the re-establishment of white supremacist order in the south.

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    A Chip Off the Old Rock Julio3000's Avatar
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    I mean, why do you guys think that thousands of lynchings happened? Pure racist murder-lust or murder in service to a larger objective?

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    Quote Originally Posted by goldfly View Post
    I always love when people try to act like/argue that slavery wasn't a reason of the civil war

    It must be part of the family story telling time around the bonfire growing up in rural areas of the south or something
    No one argued that slavery was not a reason, I argued that it was not the reason.

    Ironically, Robert E. Lee is the perfect example of this. He was picked by Lincoln to lead the Union armies after SC and several other states seceded. He didn't turn it down until after VA said the federal government did not have the right to send troops into the South and then seceded post-Ft. Sumter. You would know this if you had the curiosity to click a couple of links and spend 10 minutes reading, but I guess your time is better spent finding more gif files.

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  8. #167
    if my thought dreams could be seen goldfly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julio3000 View Post
    I mean, why do you guys think that thousands of lynchings happened? Pure racist murder-lust or murder in service to a larger objective?
    same reason ISIS and others still do public executions

    to show who is in charge and try to scare you into never stepping out of line


    but i don't think the question was for me
    "For there is always light, if only we are brave enough to see it. If only we are brave enough to be it." Amanda Gorman

    "When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Julio3000 View Post
    But this didn't happen for thrill of killing black people. They were doing it for the express purpose of the re-establishment of white supremacist order in the south.
    Absolutely, there were plenty of those people in the South (and in the North but OT) before, during, and after the war. There are still too many today, we saw that last weekend and we saw it months ago at a SC church. It's heinous. My point is that it's wrong to paint some people, like Lee, with the same broad brush.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Julio3000 View Post
    But this didn't happen for thrill of killing black people. They were doing it for the express purpose of the re-establishment of white supremacist order in the south.
    That's what the "carpetbagger misrule" part is in the 1950 monument, no? It was about a disputed election between Reconstruction Republicans and ws Democrats. They descended on a majority-black area to kill and intimidate residents. It WAS racist, of course, but it was political violence in support of white supremacist order...which is why I posted it, since it was still being celebrated decades later--which is the entire point of the thread. Not that some individuals held repugnant beliefs, but that there was, and is, something even larger and more deleterious at work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaw View Post
    Absolutely, there were plenty of those people in the South (and in the North but OT) before, during, and after the war. There are still too many today, we saw that last weekend and we saw it months ago at a SC church. It's heinous. My point is that it's wrong to paint some people, like Lee, with the same broad brush.
    OK. Let's completely exempt REL personally for a sec. My beef in this thread is with people who use(d) a sanitized myth about him and about the confederacy to further white supremacism nationwide, and particularly in the Jim Crow south. That's precisely why the monument debate matters, not because Lee was personally a hero or a demon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Julio3000 View Post
    Define some terms for me.
    I'll say that within 18 months (by March 1, 2019), we will see a founding father statue/monument taken down/removed/or substantially altered due to pressure from the left within US

    If that doesn't happen - I'll leave the politics board for a year

    If it does happen - you have to watch 2 hours worth of Ron Paul clips that I get to choose

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    I was going post what Goldielocks posted.

    White Supremacist is all about bullying, terrorizing to either subjugate us or get rid of us and if that doesn't work then murder. As I said before, the options giving to me if the Supremacist got their way with me, we can forget the none of the above. 80% would ship me back to the islands where I came from or the American Indian reservation, then beat me at 10% because it would make them feel good showing how cowardly they are, lastly murder at 5% in today's moral encompassing environment for those who just outfight hate anyone that is not their color and shouldn't be living in the same world as them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sturg33 View Post
    I'll say that within 18 months (by March 1, 2019), we will see a founding father statue/monument taken down/removed/or substantially altered due to pressure from the left within US

    If that doesn't happen - I'll leave the politics board for a year

    If it does happen - you have to watch 2 hours worth of Ron Paul clips that I get to choose
    Federally or within a smaller municipality?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Julio3000 View Post
    Federally or within a smaller municipality?
    Anywhere in the country - no distinction

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    Quote Originally Posted by sturg33 View Post
    Anywhere in the country - no distinction
    Last qualification: who's a founding father for these purposes?

    If the scope is nationwide, it's quite possibly a loser for me, but I suspect a Pyrrhic victory for you, since Monticello and Mt. Vernon will still be standing and Mt. Rushmore yet un-dynamited. But the terms of the bet are so generous that I'm inclined to take it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Julio3000 View Post
    Last qualification: who's a founding father for these purposes?

    If the scope is nationwide, it's quite possibly a loser for me, but I suspect a Pyrrhic victory for you, since Monticello and Mt. Vernon will still be standing and Mt. Rushmore yet un-dynamited. But the terms of the bet are so generous that I'm inclined to take it.
    I'm fine with using the top 10 list from this site

    http://www.ranker.com/list/best-foun....google.com%2F

    You're right. Generous terms. With me gone, that's one less dissenting voice you'll have to deal with

  19. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julio3000 View Post
    OK. Let's completely exempt REL personally for a sec. My beef in this thread is with people who use(d) a sanitized myth about him and about the confederacy to further white supremacism nationwide, and particularly in the Jim Crow south. That's precisely why the monument debate matters, not because Lee was personally a hero or a demon.
    To be clear, I agree with your beef. I feel like it's easy to talk past each other in these kinds of topics, and the subject matter is pretty sensitive to begin with. I guess I would summarize my feelings like this.
    I don't like the neo-nazi crowd that was at the protest.
    I don't like it when anything is used to further a white (or any other race) supremacy agenda.
    I don't like the removal of Confederate statues.
    I do like the removal of statues memorializing white supremacists, klan members, nazis, or any others of their kind.
    I do think the Confederacy stood for a lot of really good things. It also stood for one really terrible thing that outweighed the others.
    I don't think that everyone that wore gray did it to fight for slavery.

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  21. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaneHill View Post
    Hawk, I was actually taught in high school (Virginia) that the Civil War was about much more than slavery and that slavery is just the predominant reason passed down through our history. It was a while ago, so specifics escape me, but I want to say one big issue was economics and the tobacco crop industry. Anyway, I just recall being surprised about the other big issues that led to war and slavery was just a secondary issue later.

    As for the Charlottesville protest, come on, there is no way some innocent person is just going to go hang out with a bunch of screaming white nationalists and Nazis because they didn't want to see this statue taken down. If that was their intention when the left the house, then I would bet they either turned right around when the saw the reality of the protest or stuck around only through the first 'Sieg Heil!' Let's follow that logic further, when the alt-right protesters began chanting 'Blood and Soil!', 'Jews will not replace us!' or 'F__k you, ***gots!', if those innocent protesters joined in, then they are no better and deserve condemnation not praise. I highly doubt they would have spoke up to their fellow protesters and said 'No no, guys, that's too far. That's not what we're here for. It's about the statue, remember? Can I get another tiki torch, mine went out?'
    I was taught the same, Dane. In college as well. Btw, I have a minor in American history just a few hours from being a double major. In my opinion the Civil War actually started with the 1850 Clay compromise over Missouri. Even Lincoln himself was ok with slavery as it existed when he took office ie where it was allowed and where it was not. Those four years were a necessary event. The country could not survive under two sets of rules and war was the only way to settle it. The industrial North had a look down their nose attitude towards the agricultural South. There was no good side nor bad side in that war, just some things that needed settled and it wasn't going to be done by diplomacy.

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    It's OVER 5,000! 57Brave's Avatar
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    " I don't think that everyone that wore gray did it to fight for slavery. "
    I agree

    some did it over economic anxiety plus, she had an email server
    .................................................. .......................................

    That is how ludicrous that line of thinking is
    The best way to stop a bad guy with a gun is to make sure he doesn’t get a gun.

  23. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by 57Brave View Post
    " I don't think that everyone that wore gray did it to fight for slavery. "
    I agree

    some did it over economic anxiety plus, she had an email server
    .................................................. .......................................

    That is how ludicrous that line of thinking is
    You aren't capable of rational thought. Why don't you tweet lolgop and see if they can give you something comprehensible to say.

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