Confederate Monuments

[goldfly]

Warren Zevon was so ****ing awesome

[Oklahomahawk]

oh Hawk, can't let go of that both sides train of thought.

As one raised in the North and lived in the south since the tail end of integration. Drove through S Georgia today and counted 2 Jefferson Davis Highways, 2 full size, car lot full size, Confederate flags on US highways. Witness 2 trucks flying both the stars and stripes and the stars and bars. I won't even tell you about the gas stations

Let me offer this observation that at least Georgia it is long past time for the south to reconcile themselves with the idea of getting over the Civil War

Not really sure of your point here? Are you saying the South needs to stop using Civil War folks and symbols in place of something better or are you saying we need to start using northern folks or symbols. I seem to remember you using one of the more overrated generals of well ever the other day, US Grant. Should we name stuff after him? I don't actually disagree about the need to move on, it's just that when most yankees tell me that it makes me (someone who is generally in favor of just moving on) want to get a stars and bars tattoo. You know, just sayin'

[Oklahomahawk]

I saw a guy with a Confederate flag taped to his window driving through Cambridge yesterday.

I saw a guy with a Confederate flag Junior taped to his window driving through Cambridge yesterday...

[Oklahomahawk]

Sub rebel yell for werewolf howl.

Would that be the Stonewall Jackson version or the Billy Idol version?

[weso1]

All things being equal I'm for getting rid of confederate monuments in public places. Never been a huge fan of this confederate pride that some folks show. With that in mind it's pretty obvious that the regressive left is insatiable. And you see this with them going after Christopher Columbus. It's book burning type of stuff and it's highly concerning to see some folks who I would consider to be intellectuals be a bit meh on this behavior.

[jpx7]

I saw a guy with a Confederate flag taped to his window driving through Cambridge yesterday.

I saw several in Saint John, NB—including one large decal prominently on a banana-yellow motorcycle—when I was traveling through Canada seven or so summers ago. Ignorance travels, too.

[jpx7]

All things being equal I'm for getting rid of confederate monuments in public places. Never been a huge fan of this confederate pride that some folks show. With that in mind it's pretty obvious that the regressive left is insatiable. And you see this with them going after Christopher Columbus. It's book burning type of stuff and it's highly concerning to see some folks who I would consider to be intellectuals be a bit meh on this behavior.

Cristoforo Colombo was an idiot, though.

[goldfly]

yeah, he failed at his mission

and we still to this day call Native Americans "Indians" cause he thought he was in India

this still cracks me up and somewhat relatable:

[57Brave]

FishingForTruth‏ @FishBlanc 15h15 hours ago

I have an idea for replacing one of those statues...

[Hawk]

https://www.rt.com/op-edge/401159-go...very-protests/

Refusing to show such a historically significant film is an example of trying to rewrite America’s history: it should be shown and talked about and not called insensitive, says writer and political activist Jeffrey Mark Klein.

After targeting monuments commemorating the lives of Confederate leaders, the split in US society is now moving to the world of the big screen.

[...]

Canceling the showing after 34 consecutive years of being featured at The Orpheum fired up social media. Some tweets were accompanied with the hashtag #HattieMcDaniel after the actress, who played the house maid Mammy. For her role in the film, McDaniel became the first African American to win an Academy Award.

The film's producer, Daniel O. Selznick, reportedly collaborated closely with the black community to avoid any accusations of racism.

[...]

“It is funny that they say it is insensitive only because we are talking about two different time periods for historical context,” Klein told RT. “The movie itself was made in the 1930s, so historically that movie was not only acceptable but very well received in the 30s. And the movie itself takes place in the 1860s".

[Julio3000]

If we'd ever managed to have a more comprehensive national reckoning of these issues on the front end, I wonder if we'd have the same backlash/reaction feedback loop now.

I'm fairly ambivalent to the idea that I'm supposed to be outraged about these putative abuses against history and speech as part of a conversation where folks are unable to stipulate some pretty elementary stuff about American history. It bugs me more that there are monuments to the perpetrators of the Colfax "riot" but not to its primary victims. It bugs me more that people want to defend the Confederacy and its Jim Crow-concurrent rehabilitation but don't turn out to be such great history buffs when the subject is lynching or the denial of basic human rights.

But, on the topic, I'm not sure how dude gets here:

Refusing to show such a historically significant film is an example of trying to rewrite America’s history: it should be shown and talked about and not called insensitive, says writer and political activist Jeffrey Mark Klein.

Rewrite history? I mean, how so? Is the film being erased from the Library of Congress archives because a theater has decided not to screen it? And though I think its insensitivity is largely irrelevant, it's silly to say that the film isn't insensitive, even in the context of 1939.

[sturg33]

That slope is slick

[Julio3000]

That slope is slick

So you keep saying. Meanwhile, the Washington Monument is standing, for now.

[57Brave]

https://www.rt.com/op-edge/401159-go...very-protests/

Refusing to show such a historically significant film is an example of trying to rewrite America’s history: it should be shown and talked about and not called insensitive, says writer and political activist Jeffrey Mark Klein.

After targeting monuments commemorating the lives of Confederate leaders, the split in US society is now moving to the world of the big screen.

[...]

Canceling the showing after 34 consecutive years of being featured at The Orpheum fired up social media. Some tweets were accompanied with the hashtag #HattieMcDaniel after the actress, who played the house maid Mammy. For her role in the film, McDaniel became the first African American to win an Academy Award.

The film's producer, Daniel O. Selznick, reportedly collaborated closely with the black community to avoid any accusations of racism.

[...]

“It is funny that they say it is insensitive only because we are talking about two different time periods for historical context,” Klein told RT. “The movie itself was made in the 1930s, so historically that movie was not only acceptable but very well received in the 30s. And the movie itself takes place in the 1860s".

I for one and a Golden Age of Movies buff always thought as a film GWTW highly overrated

[Julio3000]

That slope is slick

You've never done a particularly convincing job of showing me how protest about thing Y or Z is qualitatively different as constitutionally protected speech than advocacy of same. You've thrown around some words about intimidation and boycotts without ever really showing your work. You've never really explained how protest (short of violence) is not simply another exercise of a freedom that you claim to cherish.

[sturg33]

You've never done a particularly convincing job of showing me how protest about thing Y or Z is qualitatively different as constitutionally protected speech than advocacy of same. You've thrown around some words about intimidation and boycotts without ever really showing your work. You've never really explained how protest (short of violence) is not simply another exercise of a freedom that you claim to cherish.

Protest is a great use of freedom.

I'm not sure of your question.

You guys seem to equate "being allowed to protest" = "agreeing with the protest" a lot

I often make fun of idiots for protesting something based on the reason they are protesting. Like when women were marching for equal right when in fact they have equal rights already. Y'all then think you "got me" with "AREN'T THEY ALLOWED TO??? DONT YOU SUPPORT FREEDOM??!"

[Julio3000]

So when folks are likewise making fun of idiots who who are protesting in favor of, yannow, genocide and racism, your response is ...

[sturg33]

So when folks are likewise making fun of idiots who who are protesting in favor of, yannow, genocide and racism, your response is ...

I believe my response was exactly this

My views on this...

1. The nazi protesters are truly "Deplorables"

2. They have a right to peacefully protest, and should be allowed to do so without violence

3. Antifa makes things worse

4. Trump, the GOP, and the Left should all denounce the protesters and the nazi movement immediately and without ambiguity

[Julio3000]

Where you choose to deploy that ridicule is fairly instructive.

[Julio3000]

Ok. So, having seen, again,
the idea in the post about the historical context of Gone With the Wind, the following occurs.

So. One can argue that attitudes on race were distinctly different in 1939, and in 1865. But "historical context" is not a catchall excuse for racism, or for the defense of slavery and white supremacy.

Let's all stipulate, shall we, that the moral evil of slavery and, in fact, the radical idea of equality among all of humankind existed prior to the Civil War. Is that reasonable?

Huckleberry Finn, in which a white author portrayed a black slave as a fully realized and sympathetic human being, predates GWTW by 50 years.

At the same time that we're trying to excuse the leading lights of the Confederacy for being, inescapably, products of their times, were there not powerful and passionate voices for equality extant at the same time?

During Jim Crow, when white supremacy was rampant (and sometimes lived in the White House), W.E.B. duBois and A. Phillip Randolph existed. The NAACP existed. Before that, Sojourner Truth and Harriet Tubman and Frederick Douglass and William Wilberforce existed.

If you want to give folks a pass for historical context, those people are also on the scales.