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Thread: 8/21 GDT: Seattle Mariners (63-62) @ Atlanta Braves (55-67)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sturg33 View Post
    What hurts is the previous group was acquired by using fantastic assets like Upton, Gattis, Simmons, and Kimbrel.

    I'd also lean toward putting Fried in the bust camp as well. But we need to see more
    Most of those were not fantastic assets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Southcack77 View Post
    Most of those were not fantastic assets.
    LOL OK.

    I listed 4 players.

    Most would imply at least 3 of those 4 players not being great assets.

    So tell me which 3. Kimbrel? The best closer in baseball, under control for 4 years who was traded for a guy putting up a 20/20 season in SD? Or where other comparable closers went for top 20 prospects in baseball?

    Simmons? The 4 win player who is fighting for an MVP award this year, under control for 5 years?

    Gattis? The 2+ win player signed on the cheap for 4 years?

    Upton? The 3-4 win player on a very cheap 1 year contract?

    Please

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    Quote Originally Posted by sturg33 View Post
    LOL OK.

    I listed 4 players.

    Most would imply at least 3 of those 4 players not being great assets.

    So tell me which 3. Kimbrel? The best closer in baseball, under control for 4 years who was traded for a guy putting up a 20/20 season in SD? Or where other comparable closers went for top 20 prospects in baseball?

    Simmons? The 4 win player who is fighting for an MVP award this year, under control for 5 years?

    Gattis? The 2+ win player signed on the cheap for 4 years?

    Upton? The 3-4 win player on a very cheap 1 year contract?

    Please
    The Kimbrel and Simmons trades are very obvious air balls by the front office. The worst part about those trades is that both of them felt rushed. We could have held onto both players for a few more years until the right package came along, but the insistence to get rid of BJ and how quickly the FO lost faith in Simmons was weird.

    I think the Upton trade has worked out well and I think we got a good package for Gattis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chop2chip View Post
    The Kimbrel and Simmons trades are very obvious air balls by the front office. The worst part about those trades is that both of them felt rushed. We could have held onto both players for a few more years until the right package came along, but the insistence to get rid of BJ and how quickly the FO lost faith in Simmons was weird.

    I think the Upton trade has worked out well and I think we got a good package for Gattis.
    I agree... Upton and Gattis were OK value at the time but looks like it won't yield much.

    Still, to turn Kimbrel, Wood, Upton, Gattis, and Simmons into Wisler, Olivera, Fried, Folty, and Newcomb stings quite a bit. Turns out the best hope for us is Mallex Smith

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    Quote Originally Posted by thewupk View Post
    The BB/9 is a huge concern and history isn't kind to pitchers that live in that range. Newk could buck the trend but I'm not counting on it.
    That's correct, but the sample size is still too small to make a definitive judgment at this point. Theoretically he could go 6 1/3 next time without walking a batter and get under that magical 5 BB/9 threshold. Unlikely, but it's possible.

    Either way it's too early to definitively label him a bust at this point. And I think many would be less likely to label him as such if the cost to acquire him hadn't been the best defensive shortstop of the current generation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DirkPiggler View Post
    That's correct, but the sample size is still too small to make a definitive judgment at this point. Theoretically he could go 6 1/3 next time without walking a batter and get under that magical 5 BB/9 threshold. Unlikely, but it's possible.

    Either way it's too early to definitively label him a bust at this point. And I think many would be less likely to label him as such if the cost to acquire him hadn't been the best defensive shortstop of the current generation.
    The sample size is massive. t's not like he just started walking players after he was called up

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    Quote Originally Posted by sturg33 View Post
    LOL OK.

    I listed 4 players.

    Most would imply at least 3 of those 4 players not being great assets.

    So tell me which 3. Kimbrel? The best closer in baseball, under control for 4 years who was traded for a guy putting up a 20/20 season in SD? Or where other comparable closers went for top 20 prospects in baseball?

    Simmons? The 4 win player who is fighting for an MVP award this year, under control for 5 years?

    Gattis? The 2+ win player signed on the cheap for 4 years?

    Upton? The 3-4 win player on a very cheap 1 year contract?

    Please
    Man, I mean this with all due respect, but it seems like you post these same arguments in threads that they don't really fit.... A LOT.

    Maybe we should have one "Wren lovers\Coppy Haters" thread where these discussions could go? IDK.
    Ivermectin Man

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    Quote Originally Posted by sturg33 View Post
    The sample size is massive. t's not like he just started walking players after he was called up
    Agreed
    Ivermectin Man

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tapate50 View Post
    Man, I mean this with all due respect, but it seems like you post these same arguments in threads that they don't really fit.... A LOT.

    Maybe we should have one "Wren lovers\Coppy Haters" thread where these discussions could go? IDK.
    The conversation led us there.

    I'll keep posting it because there are folks who refuse to deal with reality

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    Quote Originally Posted by sturg33 View Post
    LOL OK.

    I listed 4 players.

    Most would imply at least 3 of those 4 players not being great assets.

    So tell me which 3. Kimbrel? The best closer in baseball, under control for 4 years who was traded for a guy putting up a 20/20 season in SD? Or where other comparable closers went for top 20 prospects in baseball?

    Simmons? The 4 win player who is fighting for an MVP award this year, under control for 5 years?

    Gattis? The 2+ win player signed on the cheap for 4 years?

    Upton? The 3-4 win player on a very cheap 1 year contract?

    Please
    There is a difference between a fantastic asset and a good one.

    There is also a difference between whether the assets in a trade were appropriate and whether the assets obtained actually turn out.

    Of the trades you mention, I think Simmons is the only one that the baseball community really questioned at all. And I don't think it was unanimous.

    Of the four players you mention, Kimbrell was the best asset, IMO. And the Braves used that asset to acquire a top 100 pitcher, clear the worst contract in baseball, acquire a starting CF, another prospect, and a draft pick. Like it or not, that was a lot of value. The argument is whether they should have just eaten the Upton contract or not, but that is an entirely different question as to whether they got a good return.

    Simmons and Alex Wood are two very similar propositions. They were both young and controlled and good but not great. They are both having career seasons that probably won't be repeated, but could be. Should the Braves have kept them to be slightly better in 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019? Maybe. It's hard to say. But the Braves would have still lost in the first three seasons. to me they would make good trade chips now. I wish Atlanta had them back so they could trade them again. Wood's return having been odd and unsuccessful, I wish that especially.

    Gattis was not great player. He's a 30 year old catcher with reason to believe he will age poorly that already doesn't really have a competent defensive position. He was worth something and the Braves got something. That's not one I lose any sleep over whatsoever.

    The Braves got a lot for a year of Justin Upton, IMO. Just as they did for a year of Heyward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sturg33 View Post
    The conversation led us there.

    I'll keep posting it because there are folks who refuse to deal with reality
    I'll bet if you say it a few more times people will start believing you!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sturg33 View Post
    The conversation led us there.

    I'll keep posting it because there are folks who refuse to deal with reality
    We get it though. Don't get on a crusade beating the same drum of something that happened 5 years ago (that we are for the most part all aware of) because one or two people still don't get it.

    Its like thethe getting amped about SSS prospects, except in reverse.
    Ivermectin Man

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    I am mostly concerned about our development/coaching staff(s). I hate that you keep getting good prospects that just flop. Wisler was good, and now can't get guys out.. Blair was rolling and got called up too early and does nothing but nibble. there has to be some correlation imo... I know guys bust, but we seem to have a staggering number..
    Coppy

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    Quote Originally Posted by DirkPiggler View Post
    That's correct, but the sample size is still too small to make a definitive judgment at this point. Theoretically he could go 6 1/3 next time without walking a batter and get under that magical 5 BB/9 threshold. Unlikely, but it's possible.

    Either way it's too early to definitively label him a bust at this point. And I think many would be less likely to label him as such if the cost to acquire him hadn't been the best defensive shortstop of the current generation.
    As sturg mentioned he's walked players his entire pro career. And I can separate the trade and what been is now. I hated the trade when it was made before I knew anything out newk. Kid has great stuff but walks are a damning issue and that's whether he was traded for tron or some bum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thethe View Post
    Does this mean you are putting Newcomb into the category of not a good pitcher already?

    Braves have 6 top 100 pitching prospects right now in the minors. [Gohara/Allard/Wright/Soroka/Wentz/Touki].

    To act like the pitching rebuild failed when all of our elite pitching is still in the minors is odd and reaks of anti FO bias.
    LOL, are you really going to sit here and say you didn't consider all of Wisler, Blair, Folty, Sims, Fried and Newk elite pitching prospects?

    Shall I do a quick forum search and find 20 posts where you pimped those guys endlessly?

    Your readiness to revise history to fit your commentary is laughable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sturg33 View Post
    LOL OK.

    I listed 4 players.

    Most would imply at least 3 of those 4 players not being great assets.

    So tell me which 3. Kimbrel? The best closer in baseball, under control for 4 years who was traded for a guy putting up a 20/20 season in SD? Or where other comparable closers went for top 20 prospects in baseball?

    Simmons? The 4 win player who is fighting for an MVP award this year, under control for 5 years?

    Gattis? The 2+ win player signed on the cheap for 4 years?

    Upton? The 3-4 win player on a very cheap 1 year contract?

    Please
    Pozzies acting like the Braves didn't have anything of value to sell is the most ignorant thing pozzies say when they pimp how good the rebuild has gone.

    And nothing changes the fact that the FO didn't maximize the future value acquired by trading those assets...not even close.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enscheff View Post
    LOL, are you really going to sit here and say you didn't consider all of Wisler, Blair, Folty, Sims, Fried and Newk elite pitching prospects?

    Shall I do a quick forum search and find 20 posts where you pimped those guys endlessly?

    Your readiness to revise history to fit your commentary is laughable.
    Please find all these posts if you are going to call me on it.

    I still stand by my newk comments and said he was elite on many occasions. I also excluded Newk from the comments I mentioned above.
    Natural Immunity Croc

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    Quote Originally Posted by thethe View Post
    Please find all these posts if you are going to call me on it.

    I still stand by my newk comments and said he was elite on many occasions. I also excluded Newk from the comments I mentioned above.
    Sure thing...

    Here's a typical pencil-him-in-the-rotation quote from you right after Wisler was acquired: "Yup, especially because the rotation will end up being Teheran/Wood/Miller/Folty/Wisler by July 1st."

    Here's one of your typical list-them-out-to-make-them-seem-more-impressive posts: "Braves could go into next season with a legitimate 8 starting pitchers:

    Teheran
    Wood
    Miller
    Folty
    Perez
    Wisler
    Banuelos
    Jenkins"

    And another pencil-him-in-the-rotation post, this time as a #3: "Miller/Teheran/Wisler/Perez/Banuelos I think Wood will be used to get another bat. I don't think the front office wants to spend on pitching."

    One time, giles said "We have no one ranked as highly as Freeman or Heyward. We don't have anyone with the talent of Teheran. You are insane."

    To which you replied: "Albies and Peraza are both top 50 and Albies could potentially be a top 10 prospect. Maybe guys like Wisler/Banuelos/Folty lose their eligiblity but they are all top 50-100 type prospects."

    Those are just the first few on the first page of the search results for Wisler. You clearly thought of Wisler as a legit MOR or better SP. Now that he has flopped, you are trying to claim he was nothing special. Now you are trying to claim all the new prospects are better than Wisler, despite the fact that Wisler was ranked as high as #34 by BA.

    Need I go on to the other guys? Or would you like to read more Wisler quotes?

    ETA: I totally forgot about how much you pimped Williams Perez despite all the intelli-Braves telling you he was garbage haha!
    Last edited by Enscheff; 08-22-2017 at 12:13 PM.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enscheff View Post
    Sure thing...

    Here's a typical pencil-him-in-the-rotation quote from you right after Wisler was acquired: "Yup, especially because the rotation will end up being Teheran/Wood/Miller/Folty/Wisler by July 1st."

    Here's one of your typical list-them-out-to-make-them-seem-more-impressive posts: "Braves could go into next season with a legitimate 8 starting pitchers:

    Teheran
    Wood
    Miller
    Folty
    Perez
    Wisler
    Banuelos
    Jenkins"

    And another pencil-him-in-the-rotation post, this time as a #3: "Miller/Teheran/Wisler/Perez/Banuelos I think Wood will be used to get another bat. I don't think the front office wants to spend on pitching."

    One time, giles said "We have no one ranked as highly as Freeman or Heyward. We don't have anyone with the talent of Teheran. You are insane."

    To which you replied: "Albies and Peraza are both top 50 and Albies could potentially be a top 10 prospect. Maybe guys like Wisler/Banuelos/Folty lose their eligiblity but they are all top 50-100 type prospects."

    Those are just the first few on the first page of the search results for Wisler. You clearly thought of Wisler as a legit MOR or better SP. Now that he has flopped, you are trying to claim he was nothing special.

    Need I go on to the other guys? Or would you like to read more Wisler quotes?

    And I totally forgot about how much you pimped Williams Perez despite all the intelli-Braves telling you he was garbage haha!
    Man you put a lot of effort into trying to discredit someone else. Why does it matter so much to you? Make your point, and don't worry about what others believe. Your valid points will still be valid, and you will spend a lot less time worrying about what someone else believes.

    Your make really good and substantive points. Let them stand on their own merits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfree80 View Post
    Man you put a lot of effort into trying to discredit someone else. Why does it matter so much to you? Make your point, and don't worry about what others believe. Your valid points will still be valid, and you will spend a lot less time worrying about what someone else believes.

    Your make really good and substantive points. Let them stand on their own merits.
    Took 2 minutes to find those quotes, or about 1 minute longer than it took you to write that reply.

    Might be nice for folks to realize the things they have said in the past can be easily referenced when they try to change their tune a few years later.

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