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Thread: Global Events & Politics Überthread

  1. #1761
    Not Actually Brian Hunter Metaphysicist's Avatar
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    Julio, you misunderstand. 2003 was a preemptive war. This would be a preventative war. It is completely different.

  2. #1762
    It's OVER 5,000! 57Brave's Avatar
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    Brian Schatz

    @brianschatz
    ·
    5h


    They have lied about almost everything. There is no reason to suddenly give

    them the benefit of the doubt because they took a precipitous military action.

    Instead, our deepest skepticism, our toughest oversight, our most probing questions,

    must come now.
    The best way to stop a bad guy with a gun is to make sure he doesn’t get a gun.

  3. #1763
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    Quote Originally Posted by nsacpi View Post
    they have many fine letter writers...some really outstanding ones
    Good with ghazals.

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    It's OVER 5,000! striker42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 57Brave View Post
    Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

    @AOC
    ·
    2h


    Right now is the moment to decide if you are pro-peace or not.

    The cheerleaders of war, removed from its true cost, will gladly convince you that up is down - just as they did in Iraq in ‘03.

    But war does not establish peace.
    War does not create security.
    War endangers us all.

    …………………………………………………….

    So yeah, which side are you on ?

    War advocates start off saying “we all want peace, but...”

    or “it’s too late...”

    & frame a pro-peace agenda as naïve to realpolitik.

    Don’t give into this gaslighting.

    The same folks selling us Iraq and selling us this

    latest provocation of violence.

    We cannot repeat this cycle.
    AOC is incredibly naïve. I want peace and think de-escalation is crucial right now. However, the idea that war cannot achieve peace just ignores history.

    War achieved a American independence. War achieved the end of slavery in the US. War put an end to the greatest evil the world has ever known in the Nazis.

    War should be a last resort but it must be a credible threat. In fact, the only thing holding Iran in check right now is their knowledge that should they go too far, the US would crush them.

    I'm no hawk but hard power is a necessary evil in a dangerous world.

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  6. #1765
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    Quote Originally Posted by 57Brave View Post
    half a sense of US/Persian relations tells you yes, the US did invade Iran in 1954 overthrowing an existing monarchy in favor of a western leaning Shah that lasted until 1979.
    We can pretty much date our tensions with the Iranians to November 1979. Or to take it one step backwards, 1954

    Now, why would the US interfere in Persian politics in 1954 ?

    One of my many problems with RedState America is they think history began the day they individually started paying attention.


    I forget who said it but the way to understand geo-politics is to work backwards

    What's happening? I actually agree with a 57 post. Dang it! Near eastern targeted geopolitics will inevitably have ties to world powers whomever they might be at the time.

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    It's OVER 5,000! 57Brave's Avatar
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    Ro Khanna

    @RoKhanna
    ·
    6h


    If you are wondering who benefits from endless wars, take a look at how stocks for weapons manufacturers began to rise as soon as Soleimani was killed.

    Defense contractors spent $84 million lobbying Congress last year and it certainly wasn’t to promote diplomacy and restraint.







    The best way to stop a bad guy with a gun is to make sure he doesn’t get a gun.

  8. #1767
    It's OVER 5,000! 57Brave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by striker42 View Post
    AOC is incredibly naïve. I want peace and think de-escalation is crucial right now. However, the idea that war cannot achieve peace just ignores history.

    War achieved a American independence. War achieved the end of slavery in the US. War put an end to the greatest evil the world has ever known in the Nazis.

    War should be a last resort but it must be a credible threat. In fact, the only thing holding Iran in check right now is their knowledge that should they go too far, the US would crush them.

    I'm no hawk but hard power is a necessary evil in a dangerous world.
    it wasn't that long ago the same rationale was used to justify the Iraq invasion and subsequent occupation.

    We keep using WWII as an example of how war brought peace, but did it ?
    Some would argue the divisions after WWII created the Bosnian situation in the 90's, constant unrest in Eastern Europe, the war is SE Asia. Some will argue ( myself included) the current middle East situation is a direct result of WWI geo political gerrymandering.
    Over what --- oil --- of course

    So what she seems to you "naïve" she can afford to, as can I and you too for that matter- but here we are arguing with those we agree with ( you and AOC in this case) because you don't agree for the same reason.
    Or is it fear of being labeled not fair and balanced ?
    My mother used to call that cutting off your nose to spite your face. All the same, it is again proven to be a handy tool in the Neo-Con toolbox.
    Last edited by 57Brave; 01-03-2020 at 10:53 PM.
    The best way to stop a bad guy with a gun is to make sure he doesn’t get a gun.

  9. #1768
    It's OVER 5,000! striker42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 57Brave View Post
    it wasn't that long ago the same rationale was used to justify the Iraq invasion and subsequent occupation.

    We keep using WWII as an example of how war brought peace, but did it ?
    Some would argue the divisions after WWII created the Bosnian situation in the 90's, constant unrest in Eastern Europe, the war is SE Asia. Some will argue ( myself included) the current middle East situation is a direct result of WWI geo political gerrymandering.
    Over what --- oil --- of course

    So what she seems to you "naïve" she can afford to, as can I and you too for that matter- but here we are arguing with those we agree with ( you and AOC in this case) because you don't agree for the same reason.
    Or is it fear of being labeled not fair and balanced ?
    My mother used to call that cutting off your nose to spite your face. All the same, it is again proven proven to be a handy tool in the Neo-Con toolbox.
    The problems in the Balkans and Middle East far predate WWII. Also, using WWII as blanket justification for any war is foolish. However, it refutes the idea that war is never necessary and cannot achieve good. That was my point.

    AOC doesn't understand the necessity of a credible threat. If you are unwilling to ever consider war, you're going to get walked all over in global politics.

    That's my problem with her statements. War should not be a first option or one you quickly jump to. But it must be an option. Self preservation is all that can keep some in line.

  10. #1769
    It's OVER 5,000! 57Brave's Avatar
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    Of course it is always an option, if I remember correctly, this "credible threat" was held in check until recently.

    Why does she stand for criticism by the never Trumpers yet Graham and his bombast seems to get a pass
    Along those lines, what adjective would one apply to the Hawks of (R) ?



    You might want to look up the names and bios inside the NSA these days. Underline or color code the Bolton faction
    As one poster above noted, regime change in Iran under any pretense has been a (R) goal for 40 years
    and this ---

    "We have got to try to work out these conflicts in a way that does not involve war. That's my mission"
    - Sen Sanders today in Iowa

    My guess is that she (as I) agrees with Sen Sanders
    No more or less.
    this was un necessary

    And where were the "never Trumpers" in 2003 and 2010 ?
    Last edited by 57Brave; 01-03-2020 at 11:12 PM.
    The best way to stop a bad guy with a gun is to make sure he doesn’t get a gun.

  11. #1770
    It's OVER 5,000! 57Brave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by striker42 View Post
    The problems in the Balkans and Middle East far predate WWII.
    wish we had a tally of "wars to end all wars"
    The best way to stop a bad guy with a gun is to make sure he doesn’t get a gun.

  12. #1771
    It's OVER 5,000! cajunrevenge's Avatar
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    The problem with this strike is that IMPOTUS has no credibility. He lies so much that at this point its best to assume he is lying until proven otherwise. Nothing he does is for the benefit of anyone but himself. I really wonder if this is a QPQ to keep Bolton quiet. We all k omw how much he wants Americans to die in Iran. He probably Jack's off thinking about it.
    "Donald Trump will serve a second term as president of the United States.

    It’s over."


    Little Thethe Nov 19, 2020.

  13. #1772
    Expects Yuge Games nsacpi's Avatar
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    https://www.thenational.ae/world/men...roops-1.960145


    Maybe killing Suleimani will have the felicitous effect of bringing the troops home.
    "I am a victim, I will tell you. I am a victim."

    "I am your retribution."

  14. #1773
    **NOT ACTUALLY RACIST
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    Quote Originally Posted by nsacpi View Post
    https://www.thenational.ae/world/men...roops-1.960145


    Maybe killing Suleimani will have the felicitous effect of bringing the troops home.
    If that’s true, they are a bunch of ****ing morons. The only reason that government still stands is due to the America Military.

  15. #1774
    Expects Yuge Games nsacpi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krgrecw View Post
    If that’s true, they are a bunch of ****ing morons. The only reason that government still stands is due to the America Military.
    All they have to look at is our recent treatment of the Kurds in Syria to see what kind of reliable ally we are.
    "I am a victim, I will tell you. I am a victim."

    "I am your retribution."

  16. #1775
    Shift Leader thethe's Avatar
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    I'd love to get our troops out of Iraq. We can still run plenty of operations from within our reliable allies borders.

  17. #1776
    Expects Yuge Games nsacpi's Avatar
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    I believe it is one of Iran's top objectives to bring about a reduction in the U.S. presence and influence in the region. Mission accomplished. Win-win even. We get to bring the troops home and Iran has more influence over Iraq.
    "I am a victim, I will tell you. I am a victim."

    "I am your retribution."

  18. #1777
    Expects Yuge Games nsacpi's Avatar
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    Something to think about: If we were to have a redo perhaps take out Suleimani while he is in Syria?

    I'm sure the planning for the operation included gaming how this would play out within the Iraqi political structure.
    "I am a victim, I will tell you. I am a victim."

    "I am your retribution."

  19. #1778
    Expects Yuge Games nsacpi's Avatar
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    "I am a victim, I will tell you. I am a victim."

    "I am your retribution."

  20. #1779
    Expects Yuge Games nsacpi's Avatar
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    Something else to consider: Iran can and has been using Iraq to evade sanctions. Methinks there will be more of this as they draw closer.

    But I'm sure this was all given careful consideration by chosen one and his advisers.
    "I am a victim, I will tell you. I am a victim."

    "I am your retribution."

  21. #1780
    Expects Yuge Games nsacpi's Avatar
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    Last edited by nsacpi; 01-05-2020 at 09:59 AM.
    "I am a victim, I will tell you. I am a victim."

    "I am your retribution."

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