Last edited by CyYoung31; 10-10-2017 at 08:08 AM.
Julio3000 (10-10-2017)
At least one of these practices (manipulating a player's asking price toward other teams) is fairly widespread. Players with a preference about signing with a particular team are willing accomplices.
"I am a victim, I will tell you. I am a victim."
"I am your retribution."
50PoundHead (10-10-2017), Chico (10-10-2017), DirkPiggler (10-10-2017)
They can't prove anything that doesn't have a paper trail. Telling a player or agent to fake an injury or have a handshake in place, neither one is gonna snitch on the team bc it would ruin them for future business with that team or any other team. I don't see much of a penalty coming to be honest. I think Encheff was right about getting rid of Coppy.
Agreed. This wasn’t just something we were doing. Whoever snitched was from the inside. Coppy looking like fall guy to me. And again, there’s no way JH didn’t know what was going on. He’s equally complicit.Originally Posted by nsacpi
Forever Fredi
It would seem rather odd to be penalized for something like that - especially after Francoeur sent every team drafting before us a letter telling them if he was drafted by anyone other than the Braves he was going to Clemson.
Surely we told him to.
Has there EVER been a statement and question a certain someone should absolutely never have made and asked publicly more than...
Kinda pathetic to see yourself as a message board knight in shining armor. How impotent does someone have to be in real life to resort to playing hero on a message board?
The reports of Coppy being at odds with Ryan who was the residential anyalytic guy may mean that Coppy might have been the one who was not as keen on the analytics. I had thought different to be honest.
We know he was the one who was draft pick happy. He said it many times. We know he was the one who orchestrated the Kimbrel deal that involved getting a draft pick. Hart gave him credit and he happily accepted it. I'm thinking he may have been the one behind the HO trade as well. We got involved after it was announced the Dodgers and Marlins were about to complete a trade that involved their CB pick.
About a year ago Coppy said he has ownership of the Olivera trade...take that for what it's worth
Last edited by nsacpi; 10-10-2017 at 10:30 AM.
I kind of assumed so due to the draft pick. That's something he did very well was acuumulate draft picks. Wentz, Riley, and Minter all came from those as well as money he used (legit or not) to his full advantage.
If the reports of his cockiness are true and it seems like they are, this could have been a situaiton where he was wanting to rush thing a little too much with the HO acquisition. There were also reports (before all of this happened) that Hart nixed a couple of Coppy's trades, so that must mean he approved this one.
We are going to see many stories highlighting just how bad Coppy was.
When he was hired he was an up and coming superstar. On his way out 3 years later he is the worst GM in baseball. That is certainly a dramatic shift in a man's talents!
It's Scapegoating 101, and being done to the guy everyone hated to save jobs after the Braves badly missed revenue projections in a new ball park.
There is nothing complicated about this situation.
It could be more of a way to get rid of a guy they didn't like for cause, to avoid having to pay whatever buyout he was owed.
I do think he's going to be scapegoated, but I'm not in on the failed revenue projections narrative. You don't even start a small knick knack boutigue and judge it after one year, much less a sports complex that is not even finished yet. You give any new business 3 years minimum before you start pivoting and overreacting. I cannot see how anyone at Liberty or the Braves would make such an investment, yet have it all hinge on the first year of attendance when you're not even putting a winning team on the field.
While I in general agree with what you are saying, where have you seen data or reporting about the missed revenue projections? The reason I ask is that the Braves drew 2.5 million in a season that was in reality pretty horrid where the teams best player (Freddie) missed a 1/4 of the season and the best pitcher (Teheran) underperformed by a significant amount. Were they projecting 3 million? If so, I would question the business acumen of the person(s) in charge of those projections since the Braves have only ever drawn 3 million 6 times in history and all in seasons where they were well into long strings of playoff runs. True, a couple of those came with the opening of Turner Field but the bounce was from the high two's into the 3's in the middle of the long playoff run and not so far away from the WS win that the average fan base had become jaded.
Coppy aside, the whole basis for increased attendance seems quite a bit contrived as if they had to paint unrealistic rosey pictures to get the stadium deal done. Anyone with any real idea of how baseball works could see that the "reload" strategy was never going to work without lots of influx of cash to quickly address holes through FA acquisition. If that was never in the cards then lots of Braves FO people have been living in the land of delusion for a while. It's as if the Braves ownership said "put fans in the seats of the new stadium and we will give you more cash to make the team better and then put more fans in the seats" while the FO was steadily trading away most of the players that the casual fan might know because they didn't have the minor league system in place in advance.
It looks to me then that the whole last 3-4 years strategy has been built on long shot unicorn type gambles (Camargo suddenly turns into Machado or Folty suddenly turns into Scherzer) with no realistic chance of actually happening. Someone needs to sit down with Liberty and lay out a real plan...this is how long it will take to build with x amount of money, y amount of money, z amount of money. This is the rate of increase that can be expected with attendance and the demographics (season ticket numbers, ticket cost, parking spend, souvenir spend, concessions spend, etc) tied to a sustainable record. One season of being good will miss the attendance bump unless it is followed by another season of being good because attendance is largely a following market.
There's that, but I'm thinking it's because they want to be able to deal with all 29 other teams going in to year 4 of the rebuild and Coppy had turned off too many of them being obnoxious.
I don't see how we missed any projections either. We went from 22nd to 13th with a 25% increase while fielding a losing team. Also of those 2.5M fans I'm not sure how many are drinkers, but the ones that are were drinking in the battery instead of the parking lot. That's not taking in to account food since you had real restaurants like Antico that I ate every time I went.
I'm not sure how much revenue was predicted, but I don't see where we missed either all things considered.
Logical deduction.
The Braves decided to move to Cobb before they decided to rebuild, and they didn't make that decision based on projections of 2.5 million attending the shiny new stadium. That is the attendance they were already getting at Turner, so it would make no sense to move and have the same attendance.
When they decided to rebuild there was a large emphasis on being competitive by 2017. Most deals were made specifically with an eye towards 2017. They needed to be good by 2017 to draw the projected revenue.
They weren't good. Attendance sucked for a new stadium as a result.
I suggested as much months ago, and predicted members of the FO would be answering for this.
Now, 15 teams are under investigation for breaking rules with international signings, but the Braves are the only team to fire their GM. SD and Boston didn't fire their GMs over rules violations, but the Braves did.
Coppy took the fall because the Braves failed to rebuild by 2017 and failed to generate the projected revenue. He went from being a brilliant up and coming super star to a whiny incompetent prick hated by everyone over the course of 3 years.
Did he suddenly lose his brilliance? Did Hart make a mistake hiring him? Nope, Coppy broke rules and was fired, despite no other GM being fired for rules infractions.
Sorry, but this is blatantly a case of scapegoating Coppy, and I predicted issues in the FO months ago. The board brain trust didn't believe me then, and they still don't. Head in the sand.
Last edited by Enscheff; 10-10-2017 at 11:28 AM.
The Braves weren't 22nd in attendance when they decided to move to Cobb. They were drawing 2.5 million when that decision was made, and I'm confident the move wasn't made to draw the same attendance they were drawing at Turner.
But like I said, folks disagreed with me months ago when I predicted this, so it's no surprise they still disagree.
No, the move was made to maximize profit off of the attendance. Yes, back before the rebuild when they were winning they were drawing 2.5. They're not winning right now. I don't know the projected numbers, but I'd guess they're happy with the 2.5M and the extra revenue that came with it in a losing season fielding a team of stopgap players. We may top 3M a year or two if we're winning, but I doubt we're going to compete with the big boys and regularly draw in over 3M. The key is to maximize the revenue of the attendees.
OK bud. Do I need to link you the article talking about how moving to the center of their fan base would increase attendance?
Remember when the Braves said the new park would allow them to have a Top 10 payroll? Remember all the rosterbation that went on here when folks thought the payroll would be $160M+ in time to make a run at the huge FA class next year?
Well guess what? The payroll is going to decrease from $120M last year and be Bottom 10 next year. The "big target" this offseason was stated to be 1-2 BP arms.
So why is the payroll going to be $110M rather than $160M? Because they badly missed projected revenues. Hugely missed. Bigly missed. Sad.
No matter how much you want to talk about what you think is going on with revenue, every single thing that has happened points towards revenue being far below projections. Exactly as I predicted months ago.
I do believe that moving to Cobb County will increase attendance. I think having the access roads finished and a winning team will really help that.
I do recall something about having a top 10 payroll. I don't recall them saying it would be after the first season though. If they did, that was misleading and political bs to get people through the lean years. It's not something I ever focused on since rebuilding through the draft and trades is more prudent than free agency.
I have not read anything about payroll being at $110M next season though. That sounds like conjecture to fit a narrative. If I had to guess I'd say it's going to be around $120M.
Once again, nobody puts their eggs in the basket of immediate profit in year 1 of an undertaking this size. That's rather naieve thinking. I'm not sure where you're getting that we had such lofty revenue projections. That would be irresponsible to the board and stock holders if it were pitched that way.
Ahh yes, the good old "wait until next year" argument. It's as tried and true as scapegoating to save your job, so it's use is fitting in this discussion haha.
The Braves claimed Top 10 payroll with the new ball park. That increase in payroll is a direct result of higher revenue.
Payroll for 2018 is already sitting at $102M. The Braves are only looking to add 1-2 BP arms while ditching Markakis and/or Kemp. That ultimately results in a payroll of $110M or less. Even if it is $120M, keeping payroll flat during the 2nd year of a new ball park is hardly considered a sign of success.
Seriously, this isn't complicated. Revenue didn't meet projections, and someone was thrown under the bus to buy more time for other executives. When you hear hooves, think horse, not zebra. No need to make this any more complicated than it is just because you want to believe all is well in Barvesville.
Last edited by Enscheff; 10-10-2017 at 12:37 PM.
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