Not what AA will do, but what he should do...

[Horsehide Harry]

They aren't inheriting a bad situation at all.

Of course they are. They are inheriting a FO in complete shambles. They've already made some moves and will likely make more in the coming days. There's at least some reason to believe that their scouting department is suspect.

They are coming in to the situation well after the offseason started. The attendance numbers from last year was not as expected and the owner (Liberty) after already making noises about aligning payroll with revenue, now is pissed about wasted money from the whole CoppyHart fiasco.

The team is saddled with a couple of bad contracts, especially for a rebuilding team, that either can't be moved or can't be moved without inclusion of cash. This hinders short term ability to compete and moves more designed for long term success.

The young pitching is progressing more slowly than hoped and appears to be loaded with middle rotation type guys with the only possible TOR guys being Gohara, a guy with a weight problem, and Wright, a guy with a bit of an underwhelming debut. They are inheriting a situation where two of your top assets have had badly mismanaged service time with one of those likely rushed to the point that he will never reach his expected potential (Swanson).

They inherit a farm that is in good shape overall with quantity and some quality but with several significant holes such as lack of middle infielders, lack of catching, power prospects, pitchers who look to profile better than ML 3 or 4's, etc. The bright spots being Gohara, possibly Wright, Maybe Soroka, of course Acuna and Albies and maye Riley.

They were just hit with likely the harshest punishment ever handed out to a ML franchise.

They are suffering from the aftereffects of a disjointed approach to a rebuild as crafted by an incompetent and crooked FO.

They are saddled, at least for another year, with a sub-standard ML coaching staff and questionable minor league coaches.

The philosophy continues to be centered on thinking that was in vogue 25 years ago and refuse to drag themselves into the 21st century all while the payroll goes down and other teams get smarter and spend more.

They have no real difference making money. They are caught in purgatory and probably will remain there.

Take the fan glasses off and asses critically. You will see that while the situation could possibly be worse (no young talent at all), it could be a hell of a lot better. Building to respectability isn't that hard. Most teams eventually do it. But respectability is just economic masturbation. If you build for greatness, you pass through respectability along the way. The Braves likely will achieve respectability only to fall back into the pit of misery once again.

That's my opinion. But I live in a world without Unicorn, Leprechaun, faeries, and magic ruby red slippers.

[mfree80]

No spin in that list of potential problems at all....

[Knucksie]

Allard has one poorer season and he's considered done. Hmmm, OK.

[Enscheff]

Of course they are. They are inheriting a FO in complete shambles. They've already made some moves and will likely make more in the coming days. There's at least some reason to believe that their scouting department is suspect.

They are coming in to the situation well after the offseason started. The attendance numbers from last year was not as expected and the owner (Liberty) after already making noises about aligning payroll with revenue, now is pissed about wasted money from the whole CoppyHart fiasco.

The team is saddled with a couple of bad contracts, especially for a rebuilding team, that either can't be moved or can't be moved without inclusion of cash. This hinders short term ability to compete and moves more designed for long term success.

The young pitching is progressing more slowly than hoped and appears to be loaded with middle rotation type guys with the only possible TOR guys being Gohara, a guy with a weight problem, and Wright, a guy with a bit of an underwhelming debut. They are inheriting a situation where two of your top assets have had badly mismanaged service time with one of those likely rushed to the point that he will never reach his expected potential (Swanson).

They inherit a farm that is in good shape overall with quantity and some quality but with several significant holes such as lack of middle infielders, lack of catching, power prospects, pitchers who look to profile better than ML 3 or 4's, etc. The bright spots being Gohara, possibly Wright, Maybe Soroka, of course Acuna and Albies and maye Riley.

They were just hit with likely the harshest punishment ever handed out to a ML franchise.

They are suffering from the aftereffects of a disjointed approach to a rebuild as crafted by an incompetent and crooked FO.

They are saddled, at least for another year, with a sub-standard ML coaching staff and questionable minor league coaches.

The philosophy continues to be centered on thinking that was in vogue 25 years ago and refuse to drag themselves into the 21st century all while the payroll goes down and other teams get smarter and spend more.

They have no real difference making money. They are caught in purgatory and probably will remain there.

Take the fan glasses off and asses critically. You will see that while the situation could possibly be worse (no young talent at all), it could be a hell of a lot better. Building to respectability isn't that hard. Most teams eventually do it. But respectability is just economic masturbation. If you build for greatness, you pass through respectability along the way. The Braves likely will achieve respectability only to fall back into the pit of misery once again.

That's my opinion. But I live in a world without Unicorn, Leprechaun, faeries, and magic ruby red slippers.

The bolded point is something I don't think we pay enough attention to. We all know how dumb it is for the Braves to be paying Kemp and Markakis a combined $30M, but we don't talk enough about what rebuilding teams USUALLY do.

Rebuilding teams ALWAYS bottom out their payroll so they have tons of money to spend when they decide to ramp back up. Look at the White Sox and Phillies now for examples of the correct process. The biggest mistake the Braves made during the rebuild was failing to go all in, and having no money to spend now when the team is trying to compete is likely the biggest problem they are currently facing.

Having $35M (including JJ) in dead contracts is something a team faces when starting a rebuild, not when they are finishing a rebuild.

There are ways out of the short term mess to get the Braves to the 85+ win mark either this year or next, but it will be a short window of contention.

[Super]

No spin in that list of potential problems at all....

lol, it is taking the worst possible outcome of every scenario.

[nsacpi]

lol, it is taking the worst possible outcome of every scenario.

average Harry and thethe and you come out with something reasonable

[thethe]

average Harry and thethe and you come out with something reasonable

I would still balance the scale to overly positive.

[Knucksie]

average Harry and thethe and you come out with something reasonable

Chicken Little belongs in there somewhere.

[cajunrevenge]

The bolded point is something I don't think we pay enough attention to. We all know how dumb it is for the Braves to be paying Kemp and Markakis a combined $30M, but we don't talk enough about what rebuilding teams USUALLY do.

Rebuilding teams ALWAYS bottom out their payroll so they have tons of money to spend when they decide to ramp back up. Look at the White Sox and Phillies now for examples of the correct process. The biggest mistake the Braves made during the rebuild was failing to go all in, and having no money to spend now when the team is trying to compete is likely the biggest problem they are currently facing.

Having $35M (including JJ) in dead contracts is something a team faces when starting a rebuild, not when they are finishing a rebuild.

There are ways out of the short term mess to get the Braves to the 85+ win mark either this year or next, but it will be a short window of contention.

If I am not mistaken Liberty had to agree to not reduce payroll when they bought the team. They are required by MLB to be revenue neutral. I think that may have had a time limit on it so not sure it still applies.

[Horsehide Harry]

Allard has one poorer season and he's considered done. Hmmm, OK.

I don't think Allard had a poor season and he's certainly not done.

However, I do think his profile is as a 3 or 4 at the ML level which is fine. The point was that the system is dominated by guys who profile that way. And while they have value to the organization only a few can play. And, this is the most important point to me, their trade value is much different than a guy like Giolito or Kopech or Lopez (all guys the WS got for their sale pieces). The Braves pitchers, outside of the aforementioned Wright and Gohara, don't even have the stuff upside of Dylan Cease. They are more comparable to Dane Dunning. That's not to say that none (Allard, Soroka, Anderson, etc) will become the next MadBum or Kershaw or Sherzer. They might. But their trade value will be viewed more along the terms of Dane Dunning who was the third piece for Adam Eaton along with Lopez and Giolito.

Dunning may end up being the better pitcher. But, the upside was seen with Giolito (even diminished a bit) and Lopez. If the Braves had done that trade today it would be something along the lines of Gohara, Wright and Soroka not Muller, Sanchez and Wentz.

[thethe]

The quick change of valuation on kids who aren't even legally able to drink is crazy. Values are not that fluid unless there are injury concerns.

[Enscheff]

The quick change of valuation on kids who aren't even legally able to drink is crazy. Values are not that fluid unless there are injury concerns.

LOL, you change your valuation on prospects the moment they have a good 2 week stretch.

Remember you said AJax was a Top 100 guy after 50 good PAs in the AFL haha?

[Horsehide Harry]

If I am not mistaken Liberty had to agree to not reduce payroll when they bought the team. They are required by MLB to be revenue neutral. I think that may have had a time limit on it so not sure it still applies.

When did they buy the team and what was the value of money then as compared to now? A $90M payroll in 2007 isn't equivalent to a $90M payroll in 2017.

[Knucksie]

I don't think Allard had a poor season and he's certainly not done.

However, I do think his profile is as a 3 or 4 at the ML level which is fine. The point was that the system is dominated by guys who profile that way. And while they have value to the organization only a few can play. And, this is the most important point to me, their trade value is much different than a guy like Giolito or Kopech or Lopez (all guys the WS got for their sale pieces). The Braves pitchers, outside of the aforementioned Wright and Gohara, don't even have the stuff upside of Dylan Cease. They are more comparable to Dane Dunning. That's not to say that none (Allard, Soroka, Anderson, etc) will become the next MadBum or Kershaw or Sherzer. They might. But their trade value will be viewed more along the terms of Dane Dunning who was the third piece for Adam Eaton along with Lopez and Giolito.

Dunning may end up being the better pitcher. But, the upside was seen with Giolito (even diminished a bit) and Lopez. If the Braves had done that trade today it would be something along the lines of Gohara, Wright and Soroka not Muller, Sanchez and Wentz.

We're speaking a different language on prospects. At this juncture, the focus should be on development and sorting through who has a real future with the organization. Some of those pitchers were drafted to keep, as hard as it is to believe.

[Chico]

Of course they are. They are inheriting a FO in complete shambles. They've already made some moves and will likely make more in the coming days. There's at least some reason to believe that their scouting department is suspect.

They are coming in to the situation well after the offseason started. The attendance numbers from last year was not as expected and the owner (Liberty) after already making noises about aligning payroll with revenue, now is pissed about wasted money from the whole CoppyHart fiasco.

The team is saddled with a couple of bad contracts, especially for a rebuilding team, that either can't be moved or can't be moved without inclusion of cash. This hinders short term ability to compete and moves more designed for long term success.

The young pitching is progressing more slowly than hoped and appears to be loaded with middle rotation type guys with the only possible TOR guys being Gohara, a guy with a weight problem, and Wright, a guy with a bit of an underwhelming debut. They are inheriting a situation where two of your top assets have had badly mismanaged service time with one of those likely rushed to the point that he will never reach his expected potential (Swanson).

They inherit a farm that is in good shape overall with quantity and some quality but with several significant holes such as lack of middle infielders, lack of catching, power prospects, pitchers who look to profile better than ML 3 or 4's, etc. The bright spots being Gohara, possibly Wright, Maybe Soroka, of course Acuna and Albies and maye Riley.

They were just hit with likely the harshest punishment ever handed out to a ML franchise.

They are suffering from the aftereffects of a disjointed approach to a rebuild as crafted by an incompetent and crooked FO.

They are saddled, at least for another year, with a sub-standard ML coaching staff and questionable minor league coaches.

The philosophy continues to be centered on thinking that was in vogue 25 years ago and refuse to drag themselves into the 21st century all while the payroll goes down and other teams get smarter and spend more.

They have no real difference making money. They are caught in purgatory and probably will remain there.

Take the fan glasses off and asses critically. You will see that while the situation could possibly be worse (no young talent at all), it could be a hell of a lot better. Building to respectability isn't that hard. Most teams eventually do it. But respectability is just economic masturbation. If you build for greatness, you pass through respectability along the way. The Braves likely will achieve respectability only to fall back into the pit of misery once again.

That's my opinion. But I live in a world without Unicorn, Leprechaun, faeries, and magic ruby red slippers.

Insurance salesmen must love you

[Super]

the sheer number of pitching prospects we have makes it likely one or two of them become a #1 or #2. i don't care much for what they currently "profile" as as few guys who becomes aces got "ace" designation as prospects. i like the talent that's all over the system.

[Horsehide Harry]

We're speaking a different language on prospects. At this juncture, the focus should be on development and sorting through who has a real future with the organization. Some of those pitchers were drafted to keep, as hard as it is to believe.

We are speaking a different language.

If the team has no money to buy what it needs and the team has intention to compete then its recourse is to trade for what it needs. Yes, some of the prospects will be kept and will do well. But, some will be traded for the needs of the club. And, given the needs of the club the currency to be used isn't especially valuable currency in the eyes of most. Quantity trades usually don't happen and when they do they are not usually for excellent players.

[Horsehide Harry]

Insurance salesmen must love you

I call it like I see it. Who knows, maybe I over compensate trying to insure that I don't view the situation through fan eyes. But it's the way I see it.

[clvclv]

Of course they are. They are inheriting a FO in complete shambles. They've already made some moves and will likely make more in the coming days. There's at least some reason to believe that their scouting department is suspect.

They are coming in to the situation well after the offseason started. The attendance numbers from last year was not as expected and the owner (Liberty) after already making noises about aligning payroll with revenue, now is pissed about wasted money from the whole CoppyHart fiasco.

The team is saddled with a couple of bad contracts, especially for a rebuilding team, that either can't be moved or can't be moved without inclusion of cash. This hinders short term ability to compete and moves more designed for long term success.

The young pitching is progressing more slowly than hoped and appears to be loaded with middle rotation type guys with the only possible TOR guys being Gohara, a guy with a weight problem, and Wright, a guy with a bit of an underwhelming debut. They are inheriting a situation where two of your top assets have had badly mismanaged service time with one of those likely rushed to the point that he will never reach his expected potential (Swanson).

They inherit a farm that is in good shape overall with quantity and some quality but with several significant holes such as lack of middle infielders, lack of catching, power prospects, pitchers who look to profile better than ML 3 or 4's, etc. The bright spots being Gohara, possibly Wright, Maybe Soroka, of course Acuna and Albies and maye Riley.

They were just hit with likely the harshest punishment ever handed out to a ML franchise.

They are suffering from the aftereffects of a disjointed approach to a rebuild as crafted by an incompetent and crooked FO.

They are saddled, at least for another year, with a sub-standard ML coaching staff and questionable minor league coaches.

The philosophy continues to be centered on thinking that was in vogue 25 years ago and refuse to drag themselves into the 21st century all while the payroll goes down and other teams get smarter and spend more.

They have no real difference making money. They are caught in purgatory and probably will remain there.

Take the fan glasses off and asses critically. You will see that while the situation could possibly be worse (no young talent at all), it could be a hell of a lot better. Building to respectability isn't that hard. Most teams eventually do it. But respectability is just economic masturbation. If you build for greatness, you pass through respectability along the way. The Braves likely will achieve respectability only to fall back into the pit of misery once again.

That's my opinion. But I live in a world without Unicorn, Leprechaun, faeries, and magic ruby red slippers.

Wow. No need to go all thethe on this, but where to start???

1.) The only quotes we have seen referring to missed revenue/attendance projections have come from those on this message board that constantly say the sky is falling. Were they as good as hoped? Maybe, maybe not - find those numbers in black and white with a link and then that's a consideration. You guys keep looking at previously opened stadiums that the surrounding infrastructure and features were fully functional when they opened - this obviously wasn't the case at SunTrust. If they were projecting revenues and attendance based on the assumption everything was going to be fully functioning on Opening Day, Liberty needs to be firing beancounters before the Braves hire new ones.

2.) The young pitching is progressing slower than hoped? Only if you have ridiculously stupid expectations. The current rotation will be all of 26, 25, 24, 24, and 21 years old in 2018. The "next guys up" are 23 (Sims), 22 (Wright), 20 (Soroka), and 20 (Allard) - all of whom are now or will be legitimate rotation options by the end of the season. Exactly how many other organizations are in that situation. You guys act like TOR arms grow on trees. How many teams have homegrown #1s or #2s that were mostly developed in their own system AND how many of those are actually better? Gnats? Nope- Scherzer and Gio came from other teams. Mutts? Nope - Syndergaard came from elsewhere. Phillies? Obviously not. Marlins? Nope. Cubs, Brewers, Reds? Not a chance. Dodgers, Giants, Diamondbacks, Padres? Not even close. That leaves you the Pirates, Cardinals, and Rockies in the NL, and according to you guys' expectations they've got a handful of #3s and #4s as well. The AL? Not in the West - the Astros' aren't a bunch of homegrown kids, not the A's, Mariners, Rangers, or Angels. Not in the East - Boston and the Yankees have bought the majority of their rotations, Stroman and Sanchez are solid in Toronto when healthy, but they're not "Aces" in your book. The Indians you ask? Nice try - Kluber had an ERA of 10.50 in his first dozen starts after being called up - and he failed to get through 5 IP in 25% of those, so there's no chance any of the Braves' arms might step forward, right? I'll buy that the Rays, Cardinals, and maybe the Pirates have similar talent, but they don't have near the depth and since you guys have made arguments in the past that Archer's not really an "Ace" none of them are any better.

3.) The farm lacks MIs? Of course - Swanson, Camargo, and Albies were just recently promoted. How many other systems are so deep that they have Top 100 prospects ready to be promoted to their big clubs immediately following promotions like those?

4.) "Their philosophy continues to be centered on thinking that was en vogue 25 years ago"? You mean when AA was 15 years old and Minasian and Tinnish were 16 years old?

5.) "Building to respectability isn't that hard. Most teams eventually do it." It was 8 years between playoff appearances for the Cubs, the White Sox haven't been there in 9 years, 8 years for the Rockies, the Tigers were absent for 19 years between 1987 and 2006, the Astros went 10 years without making the postseason between 2005 and 2015, the Royals were absent for 29 years prior to their recent run of success, the Marlins haven't been in 14 years and won't be getting back soon, the Brewers didn't qualify for 26 years between 1982 and 2008, the Twins were missing for 11 years between 1991 and 2002, the Pirates were missing for 21 years, the Padres haven't been in the last 11 years, the Mariners haven't been in the last 16 years, the Giants missed the playoffs for 6 straight seasons before winning 3 Championships in 5 years. It's fun to want to be "the smart guy" on an internet message board, but this *hit obviously ain't as easy as you guys think or you wouldn't be hanging out here telling us how it can be done right after we trade for Stanton.

(Oh yeah - there are 4 "s"es in "assess". I'm one of those "asses".)

[Enscheff]

Ahh, clv with the “you guys aren’t as smart as the FO” argument.

Fact is some posters are smarter than others. For example, some can evaluate player value correctly. Some, like clvderpclv, think MAdams can be traded straight up for Odorizzi.

The FO is definitely smarter than clv, that’s 100% indisputable.

I truly look forward to reading all excuses when payroll is decreased in 2018. I’m sure the creativity used to explain how revenue didn’t miss projections, yet payroll went down will be extremely entertaining.