Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 41 to 57 of 57

Thread: Going, going gone: Braves' lost prospects' new teams

  1. #41
    Hessmania Forever
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    13,995
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    4,887
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    7,678
    Thanked in
    4,941 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by striker42 View Post
    I want the organizations caught circumventing the rules to be punished in proportion to their crime. Voiding these contracts is tantamount to millions of dollars in fines as the Braves are out the money and the prospects.

    Also, I don't think it's right at all that a player can be a party to circumventing the rules, keep his signing bonus, and then go get a second one. I understand a lot of these players are young and have no power. I'm not saying take their original bonus away. On the contrary, make these guys live up to the contracts they signed. Those contracts are just assigned to a different team.
    I don't know exactly what to do, but I think you're right in that the players and their handlers knew exactly what was going on.

  2. #42
    It's OVER 5,000! striker42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    10,598
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    387
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,189
    Thanked in
    2,041 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Southcack77 View Post
    To be clear, you think it is a bad idea that players are incentivized to report wrong doing.
    No, I think it's a bad idea to incentivize players (and their handlers) to be a party to rule breaking. Right now there's no punishment for a player being part of a scheme to circumvent rules. Instead, the players are getting a second payday.

  3. #43
    "What is a clvclv"
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Nebo, NC
    Posts
    9,634
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    5,354
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,340
    Thanked in
    1,628 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Southcack77 View Post
    It's not a fine. The braves already paid the money some time ago. Those bonuses have nothing to do with their finances going forward because they are off the books. A fine would impact their ability to spend or profit.

    You are essentially arguing that they should get the money they spent illegally back as a windfall. That's remarkably stupid.
    Was that really necessary? We get enough of that from certain others already. It's an opinion I disagree with too, but come on.

    I certainly agree that the players have every right to keep their illegal bonuses, and we deserved to lose them for breaking the rules. That said, the $22,725,000 (including the 50% overage penalty) the organization lost in bonuses paid to Maitan, Gutierrez, Severino, Contreras, Pena, Soto, Del Rosario, Negret, Zuniga, Sucre, Mezquita, and Rojas, plus the loss of Bae and his bonus money was more than enough of a financial penalty - particularly for a mid-market team. In essence, that money could've paid for a full season of a Moustakas, Arrieta, Darvish-level player had the organization chosen to spend those resources that way instead.

    MLB understandably wanted to send a message with the future penalties - and should have IMO - but probably should've been a little less heavy handed with them. Either a simple reduction in total bonus pool for a year (without a limit of how much could be spent per player), or a longer than two year period where they couldn't spend more than $300,000 on anyone (so it'd be harsher than just going over your cap in a particular year) would likely have been sufficient. Without an International Draft, mid and small-market teams are already operating at a huge disadvantage when it comes to signing these kids any way - what this did more or less assures that the Braves can't compete for the best international talent for a long time when you consider not being a player in those markets (even for a short period) makes you a non-entity when you DO attempt to sign some of that talent - think about how much of a disadvantage other teams have had when it comes to beating us when trying to sign players from Curacao because we've always been the biggest player there.

    Of course that's nitpicking too - the Braves apparently realized arguing about these penalties wan't only frivolous, it would've been a waste of time. When you get stopped for drunk-driving, the penalty for the first-offense is essentially the same for everyone whether you blow .08 or .16 - it gets substantially worse when you thumb your nose at everyone and do it again and again.
    Last edited by clvclv; 12-06-2017 at 10:19 AM.
    Has there EVER been a statement and question a certain someone should absolutely never have made and asked publicly more than...

    Kinda pathetic to see yourself as a message board knight in shining armor. How impotent does someone have to be in real life to resort to playing hero on a message board?

  4. #44
    It's OVER 5,000!
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    7,772
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    270
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,491
    Thanked in
    1,150 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by clvclv View Post
    Was that really necessary? We get enough of that from certain others already. It's an opinion I disagree with too, but come on.

    I certainly agree that the players have every right to keep their illegal bonuses, and we deserved to lose them for breaking the rules. That said, the $22,725,000 (including the 50% overage penalty) the organization lost in bonuses paid to Maitan, Gutierrez, Severino, Contreras, Pena, Soto, Del Rosario, Negret, Zuniga, Sucre, Mezquita, and Rojas, plus the loss of Bae and his bonus money was more than enough of a financial penalty - particularly for a mid-market team. In essence, that money could've paid for a full season of a Moustakas, Arrieta, Darvish-level player had the organization chosen to spend those resources that way instead.

    MLB understandably wanted to send a message with the future penalties - and should have IMO - but probably should've been a little less heavy handed with them. Either a simple reduction in total bonus pool for a year (without a limit of how much could be spent per player), or a longer than two year period where they couldn't spend more than $300,000 on anyone (so it'd be harsher than just going over your cap in a particular year) would likely have been sufficient. Without an International Draft, mid and small-market teams are already operating at a huge disadvantage when it comes to signing these kids any way - what this did more or less assures that the Braves can't compete for the best international talent for a long time when you consider not being a player in those markets (even for a short period) makes you a non-entity when you DO attempt to sign some of that talent - think about how much of a disadvantage other teams have had when it comes to beating us when trying to sign players from Curacao because we've always been the biggest player there.

    Of course that's nitpicking too - the Braves apparently realized arguing about these penalties wan't only frivolous, it would've been a waste of time. When you get stopped for drunk-driving, the penalty for the first-offense is essentially the same for everyone whether you blow .08 or .16 - it gets substantially worse when you thumb your nose at everyone and do it again and again.
    You are right. It was not necessary at all. I apologize to Striker.

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to Southcack77 For This Useful Post:

    clvclv (12-06-2017)

  6. #45
    Called Up to the Major Leagues
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    2,007
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    932
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    425
    Thanked in
    300 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by bravesfanforlife88 View Post
    hate to lose him but glad he is out of the national league.
    Somebody posted this over on MLBTR also. Not sure what difference that matters. He was gone no matter what.

  7. #46
    The Artist Formally Known as

    Ventura's Stolen Bases


    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Managua, Nicaragua and Tennessee
    Posts
    1,439
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,582
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    308
    Thanked in
    213 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Southcack77 View Post
    To be clear, you think it is a bad idea that players are incentivized to report wrong doing.
    It’s a bad idea to incentivize players to do wrongdoing with the intent of reporting it later to get their contract voided. I think that’s the official position.

  8. #47
    High School Draftee biggentleben's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    South Dakota
    Posts
    83
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    20
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    50
    Thanked in
    22 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Enscheff View Post
    I want to keep a running total of how much less they sign for now. It will be interesting to see just how badly the Braves overpaid for these guys while costing themselves access to the international market for the rest of this decade.
    The exact dollar amount means nothing. Many guys will get paid significantly less because there's no money left for a lot of teams or they're holding out for another guy right at the moment. The one guy you'll see that was a good sign of an overpay was Gutierrez, but everyone knew that when he was signed.
    Gus: You don't know anything about scouting.
    Johnny: Don't tell them that.

  9. #48
    High School Draftee biggentleben's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    South Dakota
    Posts
    83
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    20
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    50
    Thanked in
    22 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by striker42 View Post
    The problem with this is that losing the prospects is essentially a fine out of proportion with what we did. Imagine going 5 MPH over the speed limit and getting fined $20,000. That's the level of what we're talking about here.

    If you're dedicated to punishment though, MLB could always just pocket the money. Bottom line is that these players don't need to be rewarded for this.
    There is more to the punishment than could be put into press. This punishment was for actions well beyond anything that MLB had punished before, so the punishment was going to be beyond anything seen before.

    The players had no idea the Braves should not have been able to offer them money. They very well might have signed for even more if they would have known at the time. Now they enter a market with limited assets due to the time of year that they are released. I wouldn't agree at all with hindering the players at all.

    The Braves f'd up. They f'd up bad. This sucks, but it's part of what was earned by actions of the club.
    Gus: You don't know anything about scouting.
    Johnny: Don't tell them that.

  10. #49
    High School Draftee biggentleben's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    South Dakota
    Posts
    83
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    20
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    50
    Thanked in
    22 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by drewdat View Post
    Some of these signings came through pretty quick. Be a real shame if any of these teams jumped the gun discussing terms.
    They were allowed to negotiate immediately, just not sign officially.
    Gus: You don't know anything about scouting.
    Johnny: Don't tell them that.

  11. #50
    It's OVER 5,000!
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    7,772
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    270
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,491
    Thanked in
    1,150 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Managuarantano's Volunteers View Post
    It’s a bad idea to incentivize players to do wrongdoing with the intent of reporting it later to get their contract voided. I think that’s the official position.

    I disagree.

    The party in the best position to understand and comply with MLB's rules are the teams, not the prospects.

    If MLB makes it clear that you will not get any benefit and be severely punished if you break the rules then the MLB teams may decide not to break the rules. In any event, it does create the incentive for teams complying with the rules to report wrongdoing rather than engage in it themselves, because they know there is actually some enforcement edge.

    No one forces MLB teams to pay players under the table and the players are the least likely people in the whole arrangement to benefit.

    I have no problem with them getting a second payday that lets the player get closer to getting their true value.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to Southcack77 For This Useful Post:

    jpx7 (12-08-2017)

  13. #51
    Director of Minor League Reports rico43's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    6,368
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    887
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5,806
    Thanked in
    2,448 Posts
    Report: Severino gets $2.5 million from Twins, considerably more than Maitan got.

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to rico43 For This Useful Post:

    jpx7 (12-08-2017)

  15. #52
    High School Draftee biggentleben's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    South Dakota
    Posts
    83
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    20
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    50
    Thanked in
    22 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by rico43 View Post
    Report: Severino gets $2.5 million from Twins, considerably more than Maitan got.
    The Twins primary beat reporter put out a piece online last night that the Twins were the high bid on Maitan, but he chose to go to the Angels because of the depth the Twins have at SS. Not the same depth at 2B for Severino. Severino is the first of the ex-Braves to exceed his previous signing bonus and the second to receive 7 figures now.
    Gus: You don't know anything about scouting.
    Johnny: Don't tell them that.

  16. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to biggentleben For This Useful Post:

    clvclv (12-08-2017), jpx7 (12-08-2017)

  17. #53
    It's OVER 5,000! msstate7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    37,264
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    404
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5,296
    Thanked in
    3,676 Posts
    Did these kids have agents at original signing? If so, that agent should not be able to represent them at new signing

  18. #54
    It's OVER 5,000!
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    11,324
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    795
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,424
    Thanked in
    2,274 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by msstate7 View Post
    Did these kids have agents at original signing? If so, that agent should not be able to represent them at new signing
    That is the case. The players needed new representation to negotiate these deals.

  19. #55
    Director of Minor League Reports rico43's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    6,368
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    887
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5,806
    Thanked in
    2,448 Posts
    Now Pena goes off the board, to the Rangers.

  20. #56
    Director of Minor League Reports rico43's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    6,368
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    887
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5,806
    Thanked in
    2,448 Posts
    Can't make up my mind if Contreras not signing is a hopeful one that the Braves might retain him.

  21. #57
    Hessmania Forever
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    13,995
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    4,887
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    7,678
    Thanked in
    4,941 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by rico43 View Post
    Can't make up my mind if Contreras not signing is a hopeful one that the Braves might retain him.
    Given his first year stats, I can see why he may not be on a lot of teams' radar. Had a miserable debut. Of course, he is young and throws hard.

  22. The Following User Says Thank You to 50PoundHead For This Useful Post:

    jpx7 (12-17-2017)

Similar Threads

  1. Midseason - MLB.com Top 100 prospects & Top 30 Braves prospects
    By ball4life32 in forum 2023: Celebrating Our 10th Year Here
    Replies: 39
    Last Post: 08-01-2018, 11:35 AM
  2. Lost prospects' stats (Ranking from Chase's Top 100)
    By rico43 in forum 2023: Celebrating Our 10th Year Here
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 11-29-2017, 10:38 AM
  3. Your Favorite Braves' Teams
    By MadduxFanII in forum 2023: Celebrating Our 10th Year Here
    Replies: 43
    Last Post: 08-08-2015, 12:05 AM
  4. GDT 8/12/14 BRAVES (Minor) vs. DODGERS (Haren) Everyone's lost interest thread
    By rico43 in forum 2023: Celebrating Our 10th Year Here
    Replies: 94
    Last Post: 08-12-2014, 11:46 PM
  5. OT: Braves players Fantasy football teams.
    By Bdawg2309 in forum 2023: Celebrating Our 10th Year Here
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 08-23-2013, 12:28 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •