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Thread: 2018 Offseason And Targets

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    Quote Originally Posted by thewupk View Post
    There is an argument to be made that getting Realmuto out of Miami (horrible place to hit) would give him star offensive numbers.

    Acuna, Realmuto, FF, and Donaldson is a very strong 1-4.
    Yeah in his career the dude has a 127 wRC+ away from Miami with an 87 wRC+ in Miami. I'm still not 100% on board with a trade for him, but getting him out of Miami will certainly benefit him offensively.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msstate7 View Post
    Realmuto is a lot better player than gallo. Only player the braves had last season that was close to realmuto fWAR wise (4+) last season was FF. The braves had 7 in the Gallo range (2.5+)
    Sure, he absolutely is—but he’s also going to cost more, as a result, at least on a controlable-years basis. I’m also very suspicious of his defense. Plus, the Braves have a solid catching platoon currently.

    I just don’t think the Realmuto buy is a slamdunk better option than using those assets to upgrade cOF; in fact, given what’s on the market and on the current roster, I think cOF is a much bigger concern, while adding Realmuto would be a much-less-necessary luxury-buy. But maybe I have more faith in the Flowers/McCann platoon than a lot of people.
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    If it came down to it, which one of these would you prefer if you knew we had these options:

    Trade: Newcomb and Wilson for 4 years of Joey Gallo

    Trade: Wilson and Allard for 2 years of David Peralta

    Trade: Wilson, Wentz, and Derian Cruz for 2 years of Joc Pederson

    FA: Sign Nick Markakis to a 1 year 15 million dollar deal.

    Of those four options, I think the Markakis option is pretty clearly the least preferable. The Gallo trade would be my number 1 preference, followed by Pederson, then Peralta. And of the trade scenarios, I'm pretty sure that at least one of those packages would be enough to get it done.

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    Aside from your proposed Peralta offer, none of those are particularly appealing. I think you are overestimating the value of these players, especially given the market. Newk for Gallo should be almost completely a wash value wise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeanieAntics View Post
    If it came down to it, which one of these would you prefer if you knew we had these options:

    Trade: Newcomb and Wilson for 4 years of Joey Gallo

    Trade: Wilson and Allard for 2 years of David Peralta

    Trade: Wilson, Wentz, and Derian Cruz for 2 years of Joc Pederson

    FA: Sign Nick Markakis to a 1 year 15 million dollar deal.

    Of those four options, I think the Markakis option is pretty clearly the least preferable. The Gallo trade would be my number 1 preference, followed by Pederson, then Peralta. And of the trade scenarios, I'm pretty sure that at least one of those packages would be enough to get it done.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carp View Post
    Aside from your proposed Peralta offer, none of those are particularly appealing. I think you are overestimating the value of these players, especially given the market. Newk for Gallo should be almost completely a wash value wise.
    I disagree. I think the absolute best you could reasonably (and optimistically) project Newcomb for over his 5 years of control is about 10 wins, he's projected for 1.7 next year. Sure, there is some upside there, but I wouldn't feel comfortable giving him an SV over 50 or 60 million. Gallo can very reasonably be projected to produce 12 wins over his 4 years of control, at approximately the same cost. Gallo has more value pretty clearly in my opinion, so I think we'd need to add a high 45 FV or low 50 FV kind of prospect for fair value.

    Joc Pederson is projected to be worth about 6.5 wins over the next two years around a probable cost of ~20 million dollars. So we'd have to pay ~40-45 million in surplus value in a trade for him. In the most recently updated valuation charts, Wilson and Wentz collectively have a value of around ~36 million dollars. So I added Cruz as a nice upside piece to make up for the missing 4-9 million in the valuation. That should be a perfectly fair swap.

    The Peralta trade was the one that I thought I actually may have overpaid on, as he's only projected for around 5 wins at a similar cost to Pederson over his 2 years. On the valuation chart, Allard and Wilson would be worth ~38 million, but since I'm a good bit lower on Allard I think that valuation is a little rich and would be willing to send those two for Peralta.

    I think those valuations are perfectly reasonable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tapate50 View Post
    Neck ain’t getting 15 skins
    I don't think he will either, but I've heard several fans suggest that number as a way to keep him on a 1 year deal. Personally, I wouldn't give him 1/10 unless it was as an absolute last resort kind of move.

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    If all it took was Wilson and Allard for Peralta he’d be a Brave by now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hudson2 View Post
    If all it took was Wilson and Allard for Peralta he’d be a Brave by now.
    I'm not sure about that. There are some serious concerns about Peralta's splits away from Chase along with his L on L splits. Away from Chase Field in his career, Peralta has a career wRC+ of 103 over the course of 1000+ plate appearances. Its very possible that the Braves are looking for superior options because they don't think that Peralta's game will translate well to another team.

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    Even if you’re bearish on Gallo, and project him closer to 2.5 war a year, that’s still $40 million (before any arb-raise considerations), versus about the same if you project Newcomb as a 2-win pitcher annually over the next five years. Given that each have some upside, but pitching’s inherently more volatile, I’d think the Rangers would insist on an additional player. But Newcomb would be a good starting-point for a package that I don’t think would be unpalatable—especially if you compare it to what Realmuto will likely cost.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeanieAntics View Post
    If it came down to it, which one of these would you prefer if you knew we had these options:

    Trade: Newcomb and Wilson for 4 years of Joey Gallo

    Trade: Wilson and Allard for 2 years of David Peralta

    Trade: Wilson, Wentz, and Derian Cruz for 2 years of Joc Pederson

    FA: Sign Nick Markakis to a 1 year 15 million dollar deal.

    Of those four options, I think the Markakis option is pretty clearly the least preferable. The Gallo trade would be my number 1 preference, followed by Pederson, then Peralta. And of the trade scenarios, I'm pretty sure that at least one of those packages would be enough to get it done.
    I wouldn't do the first trade. The next two trades are close to being fair. I wouldn't sign Muk for 15M. But if I could have him for 8M, I would do that rather than make any of the trades listed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeanieAntics View Post
    I'm not sure about that. There are some serious concerns about Peralta's splits away from Chase along with his L on L splits. Away from Chase Field in his career, Peralta has a career wRC+ of 103 over the course of 1000+ plate appearances. Its very possible that the Braves are looking for superior options because they don't think that Peralta's game will translate well to another team.
    Reports are that we called and were turned down on Peralta. I have a feeling the price is a little steeper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeanieAntics View Post
    If it came down to it, which one of these would you prefer if you knew we had these options:

    Trade: Newcomb and Wilson for 4 years of Joey Gallo

    Trade: Wilson and Allard for 2 years of David Peralta

    Trade: Wilson, Wentz, and Derian Cruz for 2 years of Joc Pederson

    FA: Sign Nick Markakis to a 1 year 15 million dollar deal.

    Of those four options, I think the Markakis option is pretty clearly the least preferable. The Gallo trade would be my number 1 preference, followed by Pederson, then Peralta. And of the trade scenarios, I'm pretty sure that at least one of those packages would be enough to get it done.
    You don’t lose players though. Not bad and you can deal at the deadline if things aren’t working out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nsacpi View Post
    I wouldn't do the first trade. The next two trades are close to being fair. I wouldn't sign Muk for 15M. But if I could have him for 8M, I would do that rather than make any of the trades listed.
    Where are your additional upgrades occurring, if you’re bringing The One-War Titan back into the fold to “solve” cOF?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpx7 View Post
    Where are your additional upgrades occurring, if you’re bringing The One-War Titan back into the fold to “solve” cOF?
    I'm not as anxious as just about everyone else about that additional upgrade. I'm more focused on value. Holding on to the prospects in a sense means we give up 1-2 wins this year for something greater in the future.

    But I don't rule out doing something for this year if the value is there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeanieAntics View Post
    I disagree. I think the absolute best you could reasonably (and optimistically) project Newcomb for over his 5 years of control is about 10 wins, he's projected for 1.7 next year. Sure, there is some upside there, but I wouldn't feel comfortable giving him an SV over 50 or 60 million. Gallo can very reasonably be projected to produce 12 wins over his 4 years of control, at approximately the same cost. Gallo has more value pretty clearly in my opinion, so I think we'd need to add a high 45 FV or low 50 FV kind of prospect for fair value.

    Joc Pederson is projected to be worth about 6.5 wins over the next two years around a probable cost of ~20 million dollars. So we'd have to pay ~40-45 million in surplus value in a trade for him. In the most recently updated valuation charts, Wilson and Wentz collectively have a value of around ~36 million dollars. So I added Cruz as a nice upside piece to make up for the missing 4-9 million in the valuation. That should be a perfectly fair swap.

    The Peralta trade was the one that I thought I actually may have overpaid on, as he's only projected for around 5 wins at a similar cost to Pederson over his 2 years. On the valuation chart, Allard and Wilson would be worth ~38 million, but since I'm a good bit lower on Allard I think that valuation is a little rich and would be willing to send those two for Peralta.

    I think those valuations are perfectly reasonable.
    How is 12 wins over 4 years very reasonably projected when he's never been a 3 WAR player, but we're not gonna project any progression for Newk?


    Nevertheless, I think you'll find the trade value of 2-3 win level players is harder to gauge, especially in a market that's been flooded by 2-3 WAR corner OFers. I mean Camargo has 5 years of control left and is coming off a 3.3 WAR season. Does anyone here honestly feel like we'd be able to extract 100+ million in surplus value if we made him available?
    Last edited by Carp; 12-28-2018 at 05:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nsacpi View Post
    I'm not as anxious as just about everyone else about that additional upgrade. I'm more focused on value. Holding on to the prospects in a sense means we give up 1-2 wins this year for something greater in the future.

    But I don't rule out doing something for this year if the value is there.
    That’s why the Gallo option intrigues me: it’s not as splashy as buying Realmuto, but because of his years of control it’s less about trading future-value for now-value, and more about shuffling where that future-value resides (pitching versus hitting). I too am less interested in concentrating 5-6+ years of value into the next 1-2 years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carp View Post
    How is 12 wins over 4 years very reasonably projected when he's never been a 3 WAR player, but we're not gonna project any progression for Newk?


    Nevertheless, I think you'll find the trade value 2-3 win level players is harder to gauge, especially in a market that's been flooded by 2-3 WAR corner OFers. I mean Camargo has 5 years of control left and is coming off a 3.3 WAR season. Does anyone here honestly feel like we'd be able to extract 100+ million in surplus value o we made him available?
    I think reasonably younger players like Gallo and Newcomb can be projected to improve slightly. I'm ok with projecting Gallo at 3 wins per year over the next four and Newk at 2 per year for the next five.

    One little wrinkle when it comes to valuing Gallo is that players with his profile tend to get rewarded pretty richly by the arbitration process, compared to guys who derive their value from factors other than power. Which somewhat lowers his expected surplus value.
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    The thing is, I've said over and over that, unless the Braves get enough payroll space to make a leap, then they are building for a purgatory type existence - not good enough to win anything, not bad enough to punt and rebuild again.

    All this Markakis speculation is exactly the type warning sign that points to a purgatory existence. It's a easy out with no upside based on the likelihood that the franchise fire is being starved due to lack of financial commitment.

    The mouthpieces that run the Braves have said several times that the Braves will have a top 10 payroll. The #10 payroll team for 2018, according to BP, was the Cards at $160M. The Braves were 10th worst at $118.3M.
    Roster resource currently has them with a 2019 payroll of $115M.

    So, either the ownership has lied OR the Braves have up to an estimated $45-$50M left to spend.

    Sure, you can argue that they want to hold some payroll space back to make needed in-season moves. But $80M in mid season moves (keep in mind that when mid season moves are made, they often occur after 1/2 the season, and therefore half the comp, has occurred) isn't going to happen.

    It doesn't make any sense.

    If the Braves have no money and are unlikely to get any, therefore positioning themselves as a true small market revenue club, then they are currently positioning themselves to be the equivalent of Tampa Bay, Oakland, Pitt type franchises, never really good enough to win, get better and keep winning. If they want to escape that fate, like Houston did, then they shouldn't be pulling the trigger on trying to compete this soon and should look to maximize the value of their best veteran players by trading them and becoming worse short term for a better long term.

    If the Braves do have money to spend then Markakis isn't an answer. And neither is some fictitious withholding of significant funds for some in season trading opportunity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jpx7 View Post
    That’s why the Gallo option intrigues me: it’s not as splashy as buying Realmuto, but because of his years of control it’s less about trading future-value for now-value, and more about shuffling where that future-value resides (pitching versus hitting). I too am less interested in concentrating 5-6+ years of value into the next 1-2 years.
    I think Newk plus Wilson is a little too much. Newk and Allard would be a fair trade.
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