Page 201 of 579 FirstFirst ... 101151191199200201202203211251301 ... LastLast
Results 4,001 to 4,020 of 11579

Thread: 2018 Offseason And Targets

  1. #4001
    It's OVER 5,000!
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    11,386
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,392
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,746
    Thanked in
    1,975 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by zbhargrove View Post
    Since you can't read stats very well, this really hurts me
    Keep contradicting yourself. You're really winning the argument for me.

  2. #4002
    "What is a clvclv"
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Nebo, NC
    Posts
    9,634
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    5,354
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,340
    Thanked in
    1,628 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by zbhargrove View Post
    He hasn't? In 2017 he was a 3 WAR pitcher and last year he was the same pitcher when not at Yankee stadium...
    Just as thewupk asked - if Gray's a 3 win Pitcher, why isn't Porcello (who also doesn't come with as many health questions)?

    Nobody's raking you over the coals here - just pointing out that we have SEVERAL Pitchers capable of putting up the numbers Gray has...hard to see a reason to give up similar value and more control for a guy you'd have for one season (at a substantially higher salary).

    Those kinds of trades are exactly what the analytic-minded crowd screamed about not doing forever. Gray would be "just another guy" in the Braves' current rotation - if you want that, just re-sign Anibal and keep the prospects.

    What makes Gray a better option as a bounceback candidate than Bumgarner? There's little doubt which one was the better Pitcher if you're looking at what they were 2-3 years ago. If Bumgarner's a bad gamble, so is Gray.
    Last edited by clvclv; 12-14-2018 at 02:06 PM.
    Has there EVER been a statement and question a certain someone should absolutely never have made and asked publicly more than...

    Kinda pathetic to see yourself as a message board knight in shining armor. How impotent does someone have to be in real life to resort to playing hero on a message board?

  3. #4003
    It's OVER 5,000!
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    11,386
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,392
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,746
    Thanked in
    1,975 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by zbhargrove View Post
    Keep ignoring the fact that one of those years was because of injury and one was obviously influenced by his home stadium when his velocity was still in the mid 90s and his away stats/peripherals/rates were completely in line with/better than his good seasons. I'm sure that's just a coincidence.
    As opposed to your fantasy world where results don't matter and a can claim a pitcher is a 3 WAR pitcher even when he clearly hasn't been.

  4. #4004
    It's OVER 5,000!
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    26,261
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    34
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    10,000
    Thanked in
    6,108 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by DirkPiggler View Post
    The point is not to compare Gray to those other pitchers, but to compare him to how well our internal options would perform.

    If Gray is the best we can do in the trade market, I'd just as soon roll with some of the youngsters with upside and see how they do. If we can get Gray in a deal that is nearly revenue neutral and doesn't deplete prospect capital that could go towards filling more pressing needs, I'm fine with it. But I don't see the Yankees accepting such an offer.
    You have this pretty much nailed.

    Adding an impact arm like Paxton made sense because he represented a huge upgrade.

    Adding an average or slightly better arm like Gray makes less sense because the Braves have a bunch of those already.

    If Gray can be had for next to nothing, or packaged with Frazier in a deal that makes sense, sure...add him. But this idea that Gray is some sort of "front line starter" that will lead the Braves to a title is absurd.

    Of course, this calculus changes if the Braves trade several pitchers for someone like JTR or Haniger. If trades cause a hole in the opening day rotation to suddenly open up, a pitcher like Gray ends up making a lot more sense than he does now. In fact, simply using Newk in a trade means Gray makes a lot of sense.
    Last edited by Enscheff; 12-14-2018 at 02:13 PM.

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to Enscheff For This Useful Post:

    jpx7 (12-14-2018)

  6. #4005
    It's OVER 5,000!
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    26,261
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    34
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    10,000
    Thanked in
    6,108 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by clvclv View Post
    An interesting question concerning that...

    Aren't all these metrics there to help you keep from paying 3 win value for someone who hasn't been a 3 win player in years?

    Whatever the reason, Gray hasn't performed at that level in quite some time. Sure he's a buy-low candidate who may bounce back a bit. Thing is, we've already got Gausman, Newcomb, Julio, Touki, Soroka, Gohara, Fried, and Wright who have just as much chance of being that 3 win Pitcher as Gray does.

    Unless trading for Gray somehow gets you Frazier WITHOUT overpaying for either, I'll pass personally. As many have said several times, there's not much reason to go out and get what you already have - if Gray was a legit TOR option things might be different, but he's not. Given his health history, I see very little reason to gamble that he'll get through 2019 more healthy or perform better than Soroka or several others.
    This was a well thought out, intelligent, and correct statement.

    Did hell freeze over?

  7. #4006
    Steve Harvey'd
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    18,946
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,856
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5,329
    Thanked in
    3,353 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by zbhargrove View Post
    I'd be excited about watching both next year if we could get them really cheap but there are some here really over valuing Puig and under valuing Gray.
    I like gray if he comes cheap. I like puig if he comes cheap or neck is our other option.
    Coppy

  8. #4007
    It's OVER 5,000!
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    11,386
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,392
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,746
    Thanked in
    1,975 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by zbhargrove View Post
    He hasn't? In 2017 he was a 3 WAR pitcher and last year he was the same pitcher when not at Yankee stadium...

    Lol and the health thing again... one year
    You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

    He absolutely was not a 3 WAR pitcher in 2017. Was he on pace? Sure. But the missed time is absolutely relevant. He hasn't thrown over 160 innings in 3 years. But we're supposed to believe it's likely that he:

    A. Will rebound from a poor performance
    B. Remain healthy for near 200 innings?


    Give me a break with that weak sauce.

  9. #4008
    Spring Training Invitee TheRunningAgent's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    203
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    52
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    39
    Thanked in
    29 Posts
    The challenge is not to trade a young pitcher who could become a Wainwright for another mediocre pitcher. I am only in on adding a starter if he’s a legit number one. Otherwise, I’m good.

  10. #4009
    It's OVER 5,000! zbhargrove's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Bismarck, ND
    Posts
    11,135
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    766
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,672
    Thanked in
    1,967 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Carp View Post
    You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

    He absolutely was not a 3 WAR pitcher in 2017. Was he on pace? Sure. But the missed time is absolutely relevant. He hasn't thrown over 160 innings in 3 years. But we're supposed to believe it's likely that he:

    A. Will rebound from a poor performance
    B. Remain healthy for near 200 innings?


    Give me a break with that weak sauce.
    If 2.8 doesn't mean Gray is a 3 WAR pitcher then Porcello isn't either which you attributed to him so right back at you

  11. #4010
    It's OVER 5,000! zbhargrove's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Bismarck, ND
    Posts
    11,135
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    766
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,672
    Thanked in
    1,967 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by bravesfanMatt View Post
    I like gray if he comes cheap. I like puig if he comes cheap or neck is our other option.
    Same here and never said otherwise

  12. #4011
    Sabermetric Slut
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Your Mom's Basement
    Posts
    29,668
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,721
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    8,744
    Thanked in
    5,837 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by clvclv View Post
    An interesting question concerning that...

    Aren't all these metrics there to help you keep from paying 3 win value for someone who hasn't been a 3 win player in years?

    Whatever the reason, Gray hasn't performed at that level in quite some time. Sure he's a buy-low candidate who may bounce back a bit. Thing is, we've already got Gausman, Newcomb, Julio, Touki, Soroka, Gohara, Fried, and Wright who have just as much chance of being that 3 win Pitcher as Gray does.

    Unless trading for Gray somehow gets you Frazier WITHOUT overpaying for either, I'll pass personally. As many have said several times, there's not much reason to go out and get what you already have - if Gray was a legit TOR option things might be different, but he's not. Given his health history, I see very little reason to gamble that he'll get through 2019 more healthy or perform better than Soroka or several others.
    Sure I would only want Gray as a buy low option. But I would peg him higher than most on that list you provided.

    A lot of things can change though. If we can move Newk/Julio for the right deal or a group of our young pitchers for an OF upgrade then more depth at SP is preferred. So there are scenarios where getting Gray makes sense. Thinking he is the missing piece to lead the rotation is not one of them. I do think he is better than his overall numbers in 2018 .

  13. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to thewupk For This Useful Post:

    clvclv (12-14-2018), jpx7 (12-14-2018)

  14. #4012
    It's OVER 5,000!
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    11,386
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,392
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,746
    Thanked in
    1,975 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by zbhargrove View Post
    If 2.8 doesn't mean Gray is a 3 WAR pitcher then Porcello isn't either which you attributed to him so right back at you
    And I mentioned in another post (a post you quoted even) that I referenced bWAR for that, where Porcello was valued at 3.3 WAR.

  15. #4013
    Lynchburg Prospect
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    457
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    85
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    144
    Thanked in
    86 Posts
    Nats interested in Dallas Keuchel now.

  16. #4014
    It's OVER 5,000!
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    7,772
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    270
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,491
    Thanked in
    1,150 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Perfect Cell View Post
    Nats interested in Dallas Keuchel now.

    Not sure that makes sense, seems like they should be more in on whatever is left with position players.

  17. #4015
    Arbitration Eligible Freshmaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    2,933
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,796
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    981
    Thanked in
    521 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Perfect Cell View Post
    Nats interested in Dallas Keuchel now.
    They are, but MLBTR said they were pretty wary of the price. Apparently he wants 5 or 6(!!) years

  18. #4016
    Arbitration Eligible Freshmaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    2,933
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,796
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    981
    Thanked in
    521 Posts

  19. #4017
    Arbitration Eligible
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    3,381
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    68
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,171
    Thanked in
    773 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Enscheff View Post
    This was a well thought out, intelligent, and correct statement.

    Did hell freeze over?
    I'm... I'm so freaking happy...

  20. #4018
    High School Draftee
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Posts
    48
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    10
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1
    Thanked in
    1 Post
    If we are moving Terheran and Fried it better be Castellanos or Puig or Pederson and Wood.

  21. #4019
    It's OVER 5,000! striker42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    10,597
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    387
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,187
    Thanked in
    2,040 Posts
    If we could unload Teheran on someone then Gray makes a lot of sense. I think Gray gives you at least what Teheran does with more upside. But no matter what, I don't want to see a rotation with an experienced starter as our number 5. There needs to be an open tryout for that spot with Touki, Fried, Gohara, Wright, Soroka, and maybe others with chance to grab it. I just don't want to waste innings there on a rental like Gray that could be used to develop a stud who will probably produce similar to Gray.

  22. #4020
    It's OVER 5,000!
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    11,386
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,392
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,746
    Thanked in
    1,975 Posts
    Kinsler to San Diego, 2 years/ 8 million

Similar Threads

  1. Around the League: 2017 offseason edition / 2018 Season
    By bravesfanforlife88 in forum 2023: Celebrating Our 10th Year Here
    Replies: 2322
    Last Post: 10-31-2018, 12:15 PM
  2. Around the League: 2018/2019 Offseason
    By bravesfanforlife88 in forum 2023: Celebrating Our 10th Year Here
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-21-2018, 05:44 PM
  3. Discussion of Braves 2018 Offseason plans
    By Horsehide Harry in forum 2023: Celebrating Our 10th Year Here
    Replies: 1144
    Last Post: 03-05-2018, 10:31 PM
  4. Potential 2016 Offseason Targets
    By clvclv in forum 2023: Celebrating Our 10th Year Here
    Replies: 166
    Last Post: 10-08-2016, 02:37 AM
  5. 2018 Offseason
    By thewupk in forum 2023: Celebrating Our 10th Year Here
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 09-28-2016, 07:38 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •