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Thread: Fangraphs Top 29 Braves Prospects

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeanieAntics View Post
    Ender is just an ordinarily good defensive outfielder. And I don't mean that as an insult, he's really good. But there are arguments for at least 3-4 other CFs that they could be better. Simba is on another level defensively. You could make an argument that he has already established himself as the best defensive player of all time, even better than the Brooks Robinsons, Ozzie Smiths, or Mark Belangers of the world.
    Ender is probably not the best defensive outfielder in the traditional sense, but the things Simba did with his baseball IQ to steal outs (Fake out plays, etc.) are things Ender does so often in CF that we don't give him enough credit for. Andruw always made the hard plays look routine for sure and he's in another class of his own. Ender though gets you so many outs from just heads up plays that I don't even remember Andruw getting. Thus why I said unconventional. Because these are high risk plays that if he doesn't execute it looks bad and the other team can capitalize on mistakes. The amount of times he's faked out guys, caught runners by throwing behind them, etc. are things Simba did routinely. They both take risks that aren't by the book often and make it look like it's by the book. That's how good both are respectively. I also think Ender is an exceptional field general in CF and commands the outfield to the guys next to him as good as anyone I've ever seen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braves1976 View Post
    i agree about Simmons but Ender is better than you're giving him credit defensively.
    He's really not. In his career, he has a 6.9 UZR/150. That is pretty darn good, but its not good enough to be considered the best CF in the game today. By comparison, Billy Hamilton and Byron Buxton have a 10.9 and 8.6. If you look at a guy like Kevin Kiermaier, his has a 15.7 UZR/150.

    I would argue that all of these guys are better defensive CFs than Inciarte is. With Andrelton, there is zero debate about who the best SS today is and plenty of arguments for him being the defensive GOAT. Guys like Inciarte come around wayyyyyy more often than guys like Andrelton.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Individual-1 View Post
    Ender is probably not the best defensive outfielder in the traditional sense, but the things Simba did with his baseball IQ to steal outs (Fake out plays, etc.) are things Ender does so often in CF that we don't give him enough credit for. Andruw always made the hard plays look routine for sure and he's in another class of his own. Ender though gets you so many outs from just heads up plays that I don't even remember Andruw getting. Thus why I said unconventional. Because these are high risk plays that if he doesn't execute it looks bad and the other team can capitalize on mistakes. The amount of times he's faked out guys, caught runners by throwing behind them, etc. are things Simba did routinely. They both take risks that aren't by the book often and make it look like it's by the book. That's how good both are respectively. I also think Ender is an exceptional field general in CF and commands the outfield to the guys next to him as good as anyone I've ever seen.
    Yeah if you want to say that both players have extreme defensive savvy, then I'll agree with that. Both guys can do some unique things that create outs and Ender is still a really really good defensive CF. But as far as comparing the two from a value or talent standpoint, it's just not an adequate comparison. We will probably never see another guy with the defensive talent of Andrelton. We'll probably see a guy with Ender's talent in the next year or two. Hell, a lot of people think Pache is as good or better than Ender right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeanieAntics View Post
    He's really not. In his career, he has a 6.9 UZR/150. That is pretty darn good, but its not good enough to be considered the best CF in the game today.
    It is nonsense to call Ender "just an ordinarily good defensive outfielder" as you did. Further, Ender played a ton outside CF before coming here. He was great at all OF positions which is rather unique too. He is high IQ like Simmons as Individual-1 notes and makes plays others don't even think to try. This doesn't mean that Kiermaier and Hamilton are not similarly great defensively. They too are among the best at the position along with Ender. But it matters less with Hamilton as he cannot get on base enough to start on a good team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Braves1976 View Post
    It is nonsense to call Ender "just an ordinarily good defensive outfielder" as you did. Further, Ender played a ton outside CF before coming here. He was great at all OF positions which is rather unique too. He is high IQ like Simmons as Individual-1 notes and makes plays others don't even think to try. This doesn't mean that Kiermaier and Hamilton are not similarly great defensively. They too are among the best at the position along with Ender. But it matters less with Hamilton as he cannot get on base enough to start on a good team.
    What are you trying to argue here? That Ender is a great defensive outfielder, that he is on par with Simba defensively, or that he is better than an ordinarily good outfielder?

    If all those guys I mentioned are better than Ender, then by definition he would be an ordinarily good outfielder, with good being the operative word there. The only reason I say ordinarily good is that, compared to Simba, you can find a guy like Ender much more easily than you can find a guy like Simba.

    None of that isn't to say that Ender isn't a good player. He is a very talented outfielder. The only point I was making is that, objectively, he isn't in the same ballpark as Andrelton defensively. It's not an insult to say that.

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    LOL, it's not good enough to call Inciarte a great defender. He has to be called the best ever, or you're not a real fan!

    The actual facts are....

    UZR/150 in 2018 for CF:
    1 Lorenzo Cain 11.9
    2 Jackie Bradley Jr. 8.8
    3 Ender Inciarte 7.4
    4 Billy Hamilton 6.0
    5 Mike Trout 5.6

    UZR/150 2016-2018 for CF:
    1 Billy Hamilton 10.4
    2 Kevin Pillar 8.0
    3 Lorenzo Cain 7.7
    4 Jackie Bradley Jr. 7.4
    5 Ender Inciarte 6.0


    Facts show Ender is squarely a Top 5 defensive CF, and very valuable defensively.

    Compared to...

    UZR/150 in 2018 for SS:
    1 Andrelton Simmons 19.5
    2 Francisco Lindor 13.4
    3 Jose Iglesias 9.7
    4 Paul DeJong 7.1

    UZR/150 2016-2018 for SS:
    1 Andrelton Simmons 18.8
    2 Francisco Lindor 11.9
    3 Jose Iglesias 10.6

    Inciarte is a good CFer in same sense that Iglesias is a good SS, but Simmons is an otherworldy SS. Inciarte is a legit GG winner, but Simmons may be the best defender in the history of MLB. Ender is nowhere near as good at playing CF as Simmons is at playing SS, and it's not even really debatable by anyone other than Braves homers.

    No, I do not hate Ender Inciarte.
    Last edited by Enscheff; 12-12-2018 at 07:21 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enscheff View Post

    No, I do not hate Ender Inciarte.
    lies

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeanieAntics View Post
    What are you trying to argue here? That Ender is a great defensive outfielder, that he is on par with Simba defensively, or that he is better than an ordinarily good outfielder?

    If all those guys I mentioned are better than Ender, then by definition he would be an ordinarily good outfielder, with good being the operative word there. The only reason I say ordinarily good is that, compared to Simba, you can find a guy like Ender much more easily than you can find a guy like Simba.

    None of that isn't to say that Ender isn't a good player. He is a very talented outfielder. The only point I was making is that, objectively, he isn't in the same ballpark as Andrelton defensively. It's not an insult to say that.
    No one is on par with Simmons, he is that special all things considered. Ender saved 17 runs in CF according to DRS last year, Hamilton only saved 4. Hamilton is not better than Ender but he is very good and potentially great. Kevin Kiermaier had 14 DRS but didn't play as much last year, but he has had years better than Ender certainly. But they're still both great defenders in CF even if KK is the best as the difference between the great defensive CFer's is not like comparing a Simmons to a Swanson, etc. Bottom line, I wouldn't say either fits in the "ordinarily good outfielder" category.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enscheff View Post
    LOL, it's not good enough to call Inciarte a great defender. He has to be called the best ever, or you're not a real fan!

    The actual facts are....

    UZR/150 in 2018 for CF:
    1 Lorenzo Cain 11.9
    2 Jackie Bradley Jr. 8.8
    3 Ender Inciarte 7.4
    4 Billy Hamilton 6.0
    5 Mike Trout 5.6

    UZR/150 2016-2018 for CF:
    1 Billy Hamilton 10.4
    2 Kevin Pillar 8.0
    3 Lorenzo Cain 7.7
    4 Jackie Bradley Jr. 7.4
    5 Ender Inciarte 6.0


    Facts show Ender is squarely a Top 5 defensive CF, and very valuable defensively.

    Compared to...

    UZR/150 in 2018 for SS:
    1 Andrelton Simmons 19.5
    2 Francisco Lindor 13.4
    3 Jose Iglesias 9.7
    4 Paul DeJong 7.1

    UZR/150 2016-2018 for SS:
    1 Andrelton Simmons 18.8
    2 Francisco Lindor 11.9
    3 Jose Iglesias 10.6

    Inciarte is a good CFer in same sense that Iglesias is a good SS, but Simmons is an otherworldy SS. Inciarte is a legit GG winner, but Simmons may be the best defender in the history of MLB. Ender is nowhere near as good at playing CF as Simmons is at playing SS, and it's not even really debatable by anyone other than Braves homers.

    No, I do not hate Ender Inciarte.
    you need to work on your reading skills before you respond, lol. You set up a strawman to knock down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thewupk View Post
    lies
    Only sturg hates him more because Venezuelan something something socialism something something.
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    To be fair. Ender has ranked 1st, 2nd, and 1st the last 3 years in Outs Above Average using statcast data.

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    Apparently some around here just like to jump the gun without readings posts properly. Neither myself nor Individual-1 put Ender in the same category as Simmons. Individual-1 point in comparing the two was their both having high baseball IQ's and trying plays others do not think to try. Further, I was mostly disagreeing with the refusal to call Ender a great defensive CFer by the poster who insisted on saying he was just an "ordinarily good defensive outfielder", etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thewupk View Post
    To be fair. Ender has ranked 1st, 2nd, and 1st the last 3 years in Outs Above Average using statcast data.
    This must be a lie as i was assured that ''Ender is just an ordinarily good defensive outfielder.''

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    Quote Originally Posted by Braves1976 View Post
    you need to work on your reading skills before you respond, lol. You set up a strawman to knock down.
    Compared to Andrelton, anyone in the league is an ordinarily good defender. Comparisons against Andrelton was what I was directly arguing against. My position all along is that Ender is a really good outfielder. So I'm not sure what you're arguing against and it feels like you are teetering on building a nice strawman yourself.

    I guess you take issue with the use of the words "ordinarily good"... Which is weird. All ordinarily good really means is that he is an outfielder who you would routinely find among the top outfielders in the game, but not on some otherwordly level. All of which is true. Ender isn't an all time great defensive outfielder. He's just a really good outfielder among a few other really good outfielders in the MLB.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Braves1976 View Post
    This must be a lie as i was assured that ''Ender is just an ordinarily good defensive outfielder.''
    Both can be true at the same time. Ender can be ranked number 1 or 2 in some randomly given stat and still be an ordinarily good outfielder. Now, if he were outpacing his competition by being 50% better than any other player at that position, something a guy like Andrelton or Andruw routinely did, then we could talk about removing the word ordinarily.

    The fact is, in any given year you can find an outfielder or two every bit as good as Ender. Hence - Ordinarily good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeanieAntics View Post
    Compared to Andrelton, anyone in the league is an ordinarily good defender. Comparisons against Andrelton was what I was directly arguing against. My position all along is that Ender is a really good outfielder. So I'm not sure what you're arguing against and it feels like you are teetering on building a nice strawman yourself.
    If that is all you intended then you jumped the gun and your wording and follow-up post implied more. Bottom line is Ender is a great CFer regardless how you spin it just as the statcast data and other data confirms. There are few CFer's in the game that help their team as much defensively as he does.

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    Know how to tell an argument has become pointless? Folks start arguing semantics.

    The meaning of “ordinarily good” is “very dumb”.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Braves1976 View Post
    If that is all you intended then you jumped the gun and your wording and follow-up post implied more. Bottom line is Ender is a great CFer regardless how you spin it just as the statcast data and other data confirms. There are few CFer's in the game that help their team as much defensively as he does.
    Then I think your reading comprehension skills might need some work and not Enscheff's. This entire time the only thing I've been pushing back against is the idea that Ender is comparable to Andrelton defensively. You decided to jump on one word which squarely fits within the context of what was being discussed. You did this because any pushback against the idea that Ender is some sort of otherwordly defender is unacceptable, despite the fact that its totally true. He's just a really good defender amond 4 or 5 other really good defensive CF in baseball.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeanieAntics View Post
    Then I think your reading comprehension skills might need some work and not Enscheff's. This entire time the only thing I've been pushing back against is the idea that Ender is comparable to Andrelton defensively. You decided to jump on one word which squarely fits within the context of what was being discussed. You did this because any pushback against the idea that Ender is some sort of otherwordly defender is unacceptable, despite the fact that its totally true. He's just a really good defender amond 4 or 5 other really good defensive CF in baseball.
    you're full of **** and your follow-up posts proved it, lol.
    Last edited by Braves1976; 12-12-2018 at 09:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Braves1976 View Post
    you're full of **** and your follow-up post proved it, lol.
    I should have known I was dealing with a child who throws his toy in the corner and screams when he can't get someone to agree with him. I thought your 12k post count might be indicative of a little decorum, but I guess that was a stupid assumption.

    I don't want to upset you, though. How about this: "Ender is not an ordinarily good outfielder. He is on another plane of existence defensively. Even though Andrelton Simmons belongs on the Mt. Rushmore of defensive players, Ender belongs right there with him because no other outfielder can match his extreme level of talent. Braves1976 was totally right, and I was a fool for doubting him."

    There. I hope that is satisfactory because I'd rather not deal with pedantic children.

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