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Thread: The Last Jedi

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    The Last Jedi

    ...was a bad movie.

    I realize this is way after the movie was released but I was discussing this with a friend the other day. I wish to see who agrees and who disagrees.

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    Quote Originally Posted by striker42 View Post
    ...was a bad movie.

    I realize this is way after the movie was released but I was discussing this with a friend the other day. I wish to see who agrees and who disagrees.
    I wouldn't say it bad but on a scale of 1 to 10, around a 4.

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    It was a 3-4.


    Disney has destroyed Star Wars

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    Does this one have Rey in it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by striker42 View Post
    ...was a bad movie.

    I realize this is way after the movie was released but I was discussing this with a friend the other day. I wish to see who agrees and who disagrees.
    Weren't you here when this was being discussed? Zeets and jpx were all over it (in a good way).

    Or it must've been sturg ripping into it.
    Forever Fredi


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    Quote Originally Posted by Krgrecw View Post
    It was a 3-4.


    Disney has destroyed Star Wars
    I see it has Rey in it, that bumps it up to at least a six and I’ll be watching it.

    No argument on your latter observation.

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    Only way Star Wars IX can be saved is if Thrawn shows up at the end and Rey and Finn are destroyed. That way you can start a new saga with Thrawn as the bad guy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Individual-1 View Post
    Weren't you here when this was being discussed? Zeets and jpx were all over it (in a good way).

    Or it must've been sturg ripping into it.
    I didn't get to see it until well after it came out (having an infant hurts ones ability to go see movies) so I avoided potential spoilers and missed the original debate.

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    Boras' Client striker42's Avatar
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    Here's my take:

    The Last Jedi fails both as a Star Wars movie specifically and just as a movie generally. I'll cover the Star Wars angle first.

    Star Wars movies have always been about clearly defined good and evil. There is a light side and a dark. A rebellion fighting for freedom and an empire fighting for oppression. Jedi devoted to knowledge and defense, Sith devoted to anger and aggression. The Last Jedi completely misses this.

    It takes Luke and makes him into someone who would murder a kid while he slept. It makes both the Resistance (Rebellion) and the First Order (Empire) equally evil in their war mongering. It's completely out of line with the rest of the series.

    Then there's the treatment of Luke. In the Return of the Jedi, Luke confronts the dark side and brings balance to the force. He masters himself and achieves the status of Jedi. Then a few years later, he tries to murder his innocent nephew and runs away and sulks when things get tough.

    Finally, they kill Admiral Akbar without even giving him an on screen death.

    As far as it's failure as a movie in general goes, the first problem is its has long stretches of wasted time. The whole Canto Bight arc was huge waste of film that doesn't advance the plot. The chase through space where the Resistance ships slowly run out of fuel was just boring. It felt like they were desperately trying to stretch the movie out.

    Killing off Snoke without explaining anything about him feels like a Chekov's gun situation.

    But its biggest problem by far was the fact that Rian Johnson seemed to take every opportunity to insult the fans. He basically said you were wrong for believing one side was good and you should feel bad for it.

    He went as far as having Luke mock the fans by saying "What did you think, I'd take on the entire First Order by myself with a laser sword?" Yes! That's exactly what we thought!

    Johnson didn't have to make the film all fan service but he needed to refrain from insulting the fans and trying to make them feel ashamed for believing the Rebels were the good guys.

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    Come on! The Porgs were really cute.

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    Quote Originally Posted by striker42 View Post
    Here's my take:

    The Last Jedi fails both as a Star Wars movie specifically and just as a movie generally. I'll cover the Star Wars angle first.

    Star Wars movies have always been about clearly defined good and evil. There is a light side and a dark. A rebellion fighting for freedom and an empire fighting for oppression. Jedi devoted to knowledge and defense, Sith devoted to anger and aggression. The Last Jedi completely misses this.

    It takes Luke and makes him into someone who would murder a kid while he slept. It makes both the Resistance (Rebellion) and the First Order (Empire) equally evil in their war mongering. It's completely out of line with the rest of the series.

    Then there's the treatment of Luke. In the Return of the Jedi, Luke confronts the dark side and brings balance to the force. He masters himself and achieves the status of Jedi. Then a few years later, he tries to murder his innocent nephew and runs away and sulks when things get tough.

    Finally, they kill Admiral Akbar without even giving him an on screen death.

    As far as it's failure as a movie in general goes, the first problem is its has long stretches of wasted time. The whole Canto Bight arc was huge waste of film that doesn't advance the plot. The chase through space where the Resistance ships slowly run out of fuel was just boring. It felt like they were desperately trying to stretch the movie out.

    Killing off Snoke without explaining anything about him feels like a Chekov's gun situation.

    But its biggest problem by far was the fact that Rian Johnson seemed to take every opportunity to insult the fans. He basically said you were wrong for believing one side was good and you should feel bad for it.

    He went as far as having Luke mock the fans by saying "What did you think, I'd take on the entire First Order by myself with a laser sword?" Yes! That's exactly what we thought!

    Johnson didn't have to make the film all fan service but he needed to refrain from insulting the fans and trying to make them feel ashamed for believing the Rebels were the good guys.
    SPOT ON!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krgrecw View Post
    Only way Star Wars IX can be saved is if Thrawn shows up at the end and Rey and Finn are destroyed. That way you can start a new saga with Thrawn as the bad guy.
    This is the worst take I've ever seen. ANd I read a billion people who thought the only redeeming quality for Snoke would be as Darth Plagueis reincarnated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by striker42 View Post
    Here's my take:

    The Last Jedi fails both as a Star Wars movie specifically and just as a movie generally. I'll cover the Star Wars angle first.

    Star Wars movies have always been about clearly defined good and evil. There is a light side and a dark. A rebellion fighting for freedom and an empire fighting for oppression. Jedi devoted to knowledge and defense, Sith devoted to anger and aggression. The Last Jedi completely misses this.

    It takes Luke and makes him into someone who would murder a kid while he slept. It makes both the Resistance (Rebellion) and the First Order (Empire) equally evil in their war mongering. It's completely out of line with the rest of the series.

    Then there's the treatment of Luke. In the Return of the Jedi, Luke confronts the dark side and brings balance to the force. He masters himself and achieves the status of Jedi. Then a few years later, he tries to murder his innocent nephew and runs away and sulks when things get tough.

    Finally, they kill Admiral Akbar without even giving him an on screen death.

    As far as it's failure as a movie in general goes, the first problem is its has long stretches of wasted time. The whole Canto Bight arc was huge waste of film that doesn't advance the plot. The chase through space where the Resistance ships slowly run out of fuel was just boring. It felt like they were desperately trying to stretch the movie out.

    Killing off Snoke without explaining anything about him feels like a Chekov's gun situation.

    But its biggest problem by far was the fact that Rian Johnson seemed to take every opportunity to insult the fans. He basically said you were wrong for believing one side was good and you should feel bad for it.

    He went as far as having Luke mock the fans by saying "What did you think, I'd take on the entire First Order by myself with a laser sword?" Yes! That's exactly what we thought!

    Johnson didn't have to make the film all fan service but he needed to refrain from insulting the fans and trying to make them feel ashamed for believing the Rebels were the good guys.
    Star Wars movies were originally about a clear cut good and evil. But like many things, it grew over time. In the prequels we see the Jedi Council (supposed clear good) hiding information from the Senate. We see Jedi generals become war hungry and even those that weren't war hungry at the least were complicit in the creation of a clone army to unethically carry out a war. This was further fleshed out in extended media, like the Clone Wars TV show, Rebels TV show, books, comics, etc. Even at that, I don't think this movie missed that point, I think it danced around that point a certain amount, but I mean the climax of the movie was Luke talking about who the Rebellion was more alive than ever and the Jedi weren't dead. Also the Sith aren't about Anger and Aggression, the sith are about passion. That's why Anakin fell. The sith code is
    Peace is a lie. There is only Passion.
    Through Passion I gain Strength.
    Through Strength I gain Power.
    Through Power I gain Victory.
    Through Victory my chains are Broken.
    The Force shall free me.

    It's not about aggression or anger.

    There is no emotion, there is peace.
    There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
    There is no passion, there is serenity.
    There is no chaos, there is harmony.
    There is no death, there is the Force.

    Luke acted like Luke has often acted. What makes Luke a legendary hero was the ability to resist the dark side when it tempted him, not to shun it. There's no better example of this than the Death Star 2 conflict. Luke fell to the dark side and tried to strike down Palpatine but didn't. And the climax was that Vader sensed Leia and Luke attacked him with great fury. But stopped short of striking Vader down because he realized that this was an emotional pull. We know what Luke saw in his nephew, that he was already lost. He saw him working to kill the new republic and his jedi academy and reacted out of instinct, then realized the wrongness of his actions and stopped himself. Also Luke clearly didn't

    The grey area is something that again started in the prequels and then was punctuated in Rogue One and other media.

    How much screen time did you want to have to have Ackbar dying? How much screen time did he deserve. More screen time was given to Grand Moff Tarkin and he died off screen. How many countless Jedis died in Order 66 off screen? And there's more that exist. Film has issues as a medium with time needed to tell a specific tale. TLJ was already the longest star wars film ever.

    The Resistance escape was supposed to feel desperate and protracted. It's a classic trope in cinema. Canto Bight was there as a means to kind of **** on the idea of Deus Ex Machina and the main purpose was character advancement. Finn realized there was more to fight for than just Rey. He realized that he cared for an idea and a person he became less myopic. Poe realized a few things mainly that sometimes you can't just be a fighter jock and sometimes you had to think of the next step. It didn't advance the story aside from setting up a Finn/Phasma battle. But sometimes in a Saga you're not advancing the story. Look at pretty much all of ESB. What did ESB really do to advance the story? Luke Jedi trained. Han and Leia ran from the Empire only to get caught.

    I still don't get why people are upset about having no real explanation of Snoke. Powerful darkside force user, leader of the big bad organization. He's a direct analog to the OT Palpatine. Ignore everything you know from the other sources of media like the prequels and books and comics and what do you really know about Palpatine just from the first 3 movies? There's lots of talk about how powerful they are. Lots of hints of their power. They were both defeated by their apprentice on the precipice of their victory. Both blinded by their own arrogance. I could go on and on.

    Realize that the point of Johnson's talk of Luke was in fact factual. With what we know about the Jedi, if you put Luke in front of the first orrder they'd blow him out of the world. Like what happened. It's much better storytelling.

    Rebels were the good guys with some issues. Kind of pointing out the reality of the world. That there are good people who do not good things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krgrecw View Post
    Disney has destroyed Star Wars
    AJ does all the other things just as well if not better than Mac - zbhargrove

    I don't think Nolan Ryan should be a poster child for mechanics - SAV

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    There were a few truly cringe inducing moments in the film. That in itself puts it lacking true SW quality.

    The Leia Merry Poppins Force pull was beyond bad.
    "No thanks, I'd rather sit in the balcony" - Abe Lincoln

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    Quote Originally Posted by zitothebrave View Post
    Star Wars movies were originally about a clear cut good and evil. But like many things, it grew over time. In the prequels we see the Jedi Council (supposed clear good) hiding information from the Senate. We see Jedi generals become war hungry and even those that weren't war hungry at the least were complicit in the creation of a clone army to unethically carry out a war. This was further fleshed out in extended media, like the Clone Wars TV show, Rebels TV show, books, comics, etc. Even at that, I don't think this movie missed that point, I think it danced around that point a certain amount, but I mean the climax of the movie was Luke talking about who the Rebellion was more alive than ever and the Jedi weren't dead. Also the Sith aren't about Anger and Aggression, the sith are about passion. That's why Anakin fell. The sith code is
    Peace is a lie. There is only Passion.
    Through Passion I gain Strength.
    Through Strength I gain Power.
    Through Power I gain Victory.
    Through Victory my chains are Broken.
    The Force shall free me.

    It's not about aggression or anger.

    There is no emotion, there is peace.
    There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
    There is no passion, there is serenity.
    There is no chaos, there is harmony.
    There is no death, there is the Force.

    Luke acted like Luke has often acted. What makes Luke a legendary hero was the ability to resist the dark side when it tempted him, not to shun it. There's no better example of this than the Death Star 2 conflict. Luke fell to the dark side and tried to strike down Palpatine but didn't. And the climax was that Vader sensed Leia and Luke attacked him with great fury. But stopped short of striking Vader down because he realized that this was an emotional pull. We know what Luke saw in his nephew, that he was already lost. He saw him working to kill the new republic and his jedi academy and reacted out of instinct, then realized the wrongness of his actions and stopped himself. Also Luke clearly didn't

    The grey area is something that again started in the prequels and then was punctuated in Rogue One and other media.

    How much screen time did you want to have to have Ackbar dying? How much screen time did he deserve. More screen time was given to Grand Moff Tarkin and he died off screen. How many countless Jedis died in Order 66 off screen? And there's more that exist. Film has issues as a medium with time needed to tell a specific tale. TLJ was already the longest star wars film ever.

    The Resistance escape was supposed to feel desperate and protracted. It's a classic trope in cinema. Canto Bight was there as a means to kind of **** on the idea of Deus Ex Machina and the main purpose was character advancement. Finn realized there was more to fight for than just Rey. He realized that he cared for an idea and a person he became less myopic. Poe realized a few things mainly that sometimes you can't just be a fighter jock and sometimes you had to think of the next step. It didn't advance the story aside from setting up a Finn/Phasma battle. But sometimes in a Saga you're not advancing the story. Look at pretty much all of ESB. What did ESB really do to advance the story? Luke Jedi trained. Han and Leia ran from the Empire only to get caught.

    I still don't get why people are upset about having no real explanation of Snoke. Powerful darkside force user, leader of the big bad organization. He's a direct analog to the OT Palpatine. Ignore everything you know from the other sources of media like the prequels and books and comics and what do you really know about Palpatine just from the first 3 movies? There's lots of talk about how powerful they are. Lots of hints of their power. They were both defeated by their apprentice on the precipice of their victory. Both blinded by their own arrogance. I could go on and on.

    Realize that the point of Johnson's talk of Luke was in fact factual. With what we know about the Jedi, if you put Luke in front of the first orrder they'd blow him out of the world. Like what happened. It's much better storytelling.

    Rebels were the good guys with some issues. Kind of pointing out the reality of the world. That there are good people who do not good things.
    "Anger, fear, aggression, the dark side are they" - Master Yoda

    TV shows and the expanded universe can delve into moral ambiguities in the universe. The major, canon movies have a certain quality they need to keep. The well defined good and evil was a core aspect of the films. You have Anakin's struggle with the dark side and his eventual fall to it. That's juxtaposed with Luke's same struggle but his ultimate rejection of it.

    I heard it described as going to McDonalds, ordering a Big Mac and getting served a plate of spaghetti. It doesn't matter if the spaghetti is really good, it's not what you go to McDonald's to get. You don't go to the main Start Wars films for a tale of flawed heroes and gray areas. You go for a tale of good vs evil.

    As for Luke, his weakness when dealing with Kylo negated the impact of the end of Return of the Jedi. Luke showed he was willing to die and let the Emperor and Vader win rather give into his anger and kill his father. With Kylo, he gives into fear (another aspect of the dark side). He then runs away robbing that universe of the legendary hero it took 3 movies to build.

    I would have liked at least some last words for Ackbar. He's something of an iconic character even though his part of small. Jek Porkins got that and he's only remembered for being fat.

    ESB was a slow build to the biggest reveal is cinematic history... "I am your father". The ride was also enjoyable because you had interesting new characters (Yoda and Lando), great new locations (Dagobah, Hoth, and Bespin), and entertaining action sprinkled throughout (Battle of Hoth, asteroid field chase, Empire capturing Han and Leia, and the showdown between Luke and Vader.

    Snoke was dangled as a mystery by JJ Abrams. His origins were intentionally obscure. The emperor was the standard head of the bad guys. Snoke was this mysterious character who rose after the emperor's fall and who turned Kylo. He was placed in the plot and never used. He's a Checkov's gun.

    Every Star Wars fan realizes Luke wouldn't be able to take down the first order single handedly with a laser sword. What people wanted to see was Luke to come out and do awesome stuff with said laser sword. Instead, they were mocked for this desire. Rian Johnson was intentionally trying to not give fans what they wanted. You can't take that approach in a Star Wars film.

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    Quote Originally Posted by striker42 View Post
    "Anger, fear, aggression, the dark side are they" - Master Yoda

    TV shows and the expanded universe can delve into moral ambiguities in the universe. The major, canon movies have a certain quality they need to keep. The well defined good and evil was a core aspect of the films. You have Anakin's struggle with the dark side and his eventual fall to it. That's juxtaposed with Luke's same struggle but his ultimate rejection of it.

    I heard it described as going to McDonalds, ordering a Big Mac and getting served a plate of spaghetti. It doesn't matter if the spaghetti is really good, it's not what you go to McDonald's to get. You don't go to the main Start Wars films for a tale of flawed heroes and gray areas. You go for a tale of good vs evil.

    As for Luke, his weakness when dealing with Kylo negated the impact of the end of Return of the Jedi. Luke showed he was willing to die and let the Emperor and Vader win rather give into his anger and kill his father. With Kylo, he gives into fear (another aspect of the dark side). He then runs away robbing that universe of the legendary hero it took 3 movies to build.

    I would have liked at least some last words for Ackbar. He's something of an iconic character even though his part of small. Jek Porkins got that and he's only remembered for being fat.

    ESB was a slow build to the biggest reveal is cinematic history... "I am your father". The ride was also enjoyable because you had interesting new characters (Yoda and Lando), great new locations (Dagobah, Hoth, and Bespin), and entertaining action sprinkled throughout (Battle of Hoth, asteroid field chase, Empire capturing Han and Leia, and the showdown between Luke and Vader.

    Snoke was dangled as a mystery by JJ Abrams. His origins were intentionally obscure. The emperor was the standard head of the bad guys. Snoke was this mysterious character who rose after the emperor's fall and who turned Kylo. He was placed in the plot and never used. He's a Checkov's gun.

    Every Star Wars fan realizes Luke wouldn't be able to take down the first order single handedly with a laser sword. What people wanted to see was Luke to come out and do awesome stuff with said laser sword. Instead, they were mocked for this desire. Rian Johnson was intentionally trying to not give fans what they wanted. You can't take that approach in a Star Wars film.
    They break down to emotion and passion. Something that ran strong in the skywalker line, something that wasn't an issue in the old jedi order. Though granted at this point I may be talking about legends. But the Jedi basically became the false godhood that they did as a way to exclude people who showed attachment and emotion.

    I'll talk about each film in broad stokes vis a vis good vs. evil

    Ep 1 - Kind of clear cut pretty bland. Cursed trade embargo from horribly racist depictions of asians. Darth Maul literally was red and black with spikes. It was bland and obvious. Until you hit the end, where the Jedi council doesn't tell everyone the Sith are back for fear of scaring people. Defying line 2 of the Jedi Code

    There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.

    Ep 2 - Slightly more ambiguous. Depends on who you consider the main character. Here you see temptations, and true temptations from the dark side. Dooku tells Obi Wan effectively that the Chancellor is the Sith Lord and they could overthrow him together. Dooku is the most interesting villain from the prequels as he's a former jedi who turned away after the order played down his former apprentices death at the hands of the sith. Of course none of this makes the movie and makes him kind of a generic type of villain but eh **** happens. So we see the Galaxy basically driven to Civil War because the Jedi. Their backturn on Qui Gon led to Dooku leaving the order. Dooku's well connected family and rejection fromt he Jedi lead to him becoming Palpatine's apprentice. Dooku is the one who killed and impersonated Sifodius to commission the clone army. And the Jedi just blindly allowed the creation of an army of clones and then instead of just sticking to being Peacekeepers became generals in the army.

    Ep 3 - Contains the famous line "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil?" which is probably the most ambiguous line of any film. And he isn't inherently wrong. Just in the films the Jedi order went from being peacekeepers to being generals in the war. They were hiding countless things from the rest of the Galaxy out of fear, breaking lines 1 and 2 of their code. Anakin witnessed all this and then had his affair and marriage to Padme and then subsequently because of the Jedi Order couldn't talk to anyone there and instead was greeted with open arms by Sidious.

    Ep 4 - Pretty black and white. Plucky rebels fighting against comically evil robot man.

    Ep 5 - Slightly more gray. Here you're introduced to character flaws. Luke in his training is revealed that he's not exceptionally special and has to work just like everyone else. Leia and Han go on a long protracted and obtuse escape that should never work and when it seemingly does, surprise it doesn't. The massive resources of the Empire are able to hunt down a single ship, as one would expect. Here is where Luke learns that Vader isn't 100% evil robot man, but his father.

    Ep 6 - More akin to Ep 4 in a more black/white system. Here you're given the biggest baddest bad guy. Who seemingly manipulates everyone and everything and is unbeatable. Until he's turned on by his apprentice who he considered fully under his thumb.

    So yes a lot of the OT was pretty black and white but the prequels dove into more of a morally ambiguous area. ANd I don't really think that Ep 8 was that morally ambiguous. First Order was still really bad. The "bad" of the resistance was shown by the opportunistic DJ. Clearly a profiteer in his own manner as he turned on the people who helped him escape because more money and freedom came. DJ was there to counter Rose. Rose had a real reason to join the resistance, as she grew up on a planet that was controlled by the first order and saw first hand the horrible treatment of the first order. DJ existed as a counterpoint. If you think of Looney Tunes. Rose was the Angel on the right shoulder and DJ was the devil on the left. Luke spent time derailing the Jedi Order. But if you condense what he says, it's all very light side. First lesson is about the Force. And it's about derailing the way the Jedi Order was ran. FInding people with high midichlorian counts and indoctrinating them from a young age. Luke in his lesson takes the Force back to what it was in Episode 4, a mystical life force that binds the universe. No one person has access to it. His second lesson is about failure of the Jedi. It's about all the very real failures of the Jedi Order that lead to the rise of the Empire and Luke's personal failings that fully turned Kylo. More importantly it's about the aspect of (when coupled with the deleted 3rd lesson) that legends won't save you. People doing things will. Luke of course is semi-reluctantly doing this training, as was Yoda in ESB. But Luke realizes the folly in his ways as Rey departs. I'm gonna come back to Luke in a minute.

    I mean Ackbar died doing what he did best. And in fact he and Leia gave the orders that would save the Raddus and the resistance before passing. I mean he was given in my opinion a suitable death for a side character. Like Biggs and other rebel pilots he went down with the ship fighting and protecting his cause. I feel like you're nitpicking. He wasn't a main character and his death served a purpose in the story.

    ESB is a great film because it centralizes on character development. We see the development of a relationship between Han and Leia. We see Luke grow with the force and learn more about the force. We see all these things. The plot barely moves and everything that happens happens as a means of character development. It exists as a way to move the character along so they wind up in the right places for Return of the Jedi. And I think Johnson did largely was going for something similar here. He wanted Rey, Poe, and Leia as the heads of the Resistance with Rey or Poe ultimately taking over. He wanted Kylo Ren leading the First Order. And he wanted finn to have a reason to be around that wasn't Rey incase the future direction of the movies had Rey become like Luke was after Return of the Jedi. Everything attempted was to round out the characters. ESB turned Han from a cocky smuggler into a rogue with a heart for Leia and good. It turned Luke from a farmboy with special skills to a more rounded warrior. It turned Leia from someone waiting to be saved to a hero equal to anyone else in the rebellion. It took Darth Vader from the effective poster child for evil into a bit more of a rounded villain and set up his redemption. The plot didn't really advance during ESB.

    Snoke was not really dangled as a mystery by Abrams. Snoke is mentioned 30 times in the script Most of those are from his 3 scenes as a projection and aren't lines about him. ALl mentions of snoke in the film. https://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-W...e-Awakens.html

    Supreme Leader Snoke was explicit.
    Capture the droid if we can, but
    destroy it if we must.

    They're obviously skilled at
    committing high treason. Perhaps
    Leader Snoke should consider using a
    clone army.

    Careful, Ren. That your "personal
    interests" not interfere with orders
    from Leader Snoke.
    HAN
    We both had to deal with it in our
    own way. I went back to the only
    thing I was ever good at.

    LEIA
    We both did.

    HAN
    We lost our son, forever.

    LEIA
    No.

    (LONG BEAT)
    It was Snoke.
    Han takes this in.

    LEIA (CONT'D)
    He seduced our son to the dark side.
    But we can still save him. Me.
    You.


    That's what Snoke wants you to believe
    but it's not true. My son is alive.


    Snoke is using you for your power.
    When he gets what he wants, he'll
    crush you -- you know it's true.

    The mystery was all droned up by fans. The only mystery was his real size as he used a holographic projection. It was fans that ran wild with speculations. I want you to build a case for me without the prequels which didn't exist for 16 years after the OT ended. As to how the Emperor is different than Snoke. There isn't really a difference except for the time after that other media expanded on Palpatine. Which I'm sure will happen with Snoke as well and we'll learn much more about his origins.

    So let us get back to Luke. Let us take what was said in the film and Episode 7 and consider it in the character creations.

    At some point afterEndor Luke starts a Jedi Order. Kylo betrays the order kills the students who won't join him and Luke goes into exile. That's what's basically established in Ep 7. Luke is living on a planet that's supposed to be impossible to find. He does this as a means to repent/whatever. So there's a few ways Rian Johnson could have gone with this. One way is exactly how he did it. The second way is the seemingly majority of fans wanted to happen which was Luke trained out there and now is the baddest badass in the force. Basically a light side Vader capable to crushing the first order with Rey by his side. Third is that Luke is workign on another Jedi Academy but wants to be away from everyone else. And that's about where I come to as a finally of ideas. Why I think Johnson's makes sense is consider that Luke at his core in the OT did what he did for Family. He wanted to protect Leia, redeem Vader, so on so forth. He takes on Kylo to protect the family and instead pushes him over the edge to put everything he worked for and all who he loves at risk.

    The film clearly explains why Luke does eveything that he does.

    I saw darkness. I'd sensed it building in him. I'd see it at moments during his training. But then I looked inside... and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, and pain, and death... and the end of everything I love because of what he will become. And for the briefest moment of pure instinct... I thought I could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow. And I was left with shame... and with consequence. And the last thing I saw... were the eyes of a frightened boy whose master had failed him

    It's all there. You may disagree with it. But consider the Luke Skywalker the legend. Luke saw his own legacy being crushed in Kylo. ANd for a brief moment the darkside swelled before he rejected it.

    COnsider this line from the script of RotJ

    To be a Jedi, Luke, you must confront and then go beyond the dark side
    - the side your father couldn't get past. Impatience is the easiest
    door - for you, like your father. Only, your father was seduced by what
    he found on the other side of the door, and you have held firm. You're
    no longer so reckless now, Luke. You are strong and patient. And now,
    you must face Darth Vader again!

    And then consider the Clone Wars arc. Mortis is an ethereal planet, effectively a realization of the force. Daytime was the light, lovely and balanced.Night time the dark, cruel and powerful. The planet was inhabited by the Father, how kept balance between the Daughter (light) and Son (dark) ANakin was to bring balance to the force, which was not to Eliminate the Light or Dark, but to master both. To be able to control both and keep both in check as need be. That was something never taught to Luke, but something very much in his blood. That the connection to the Dark Side was going to be naturally stronger as his father was Force Jesus and therefor contained strong elements of Light and Dark.
    AJ does all the other things just as well if not better than Mac - zbhargrove

    I don't think Nolan Ryan should be a poster child for mechanics - SAV

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