Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 70

Thread: Pen Targets

  1. #1
    Expects Yuge Games nsacpi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    47,433
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,704
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    11,384
    Thanked in
    7,533 Posts

    Pen Targets

    Now that the Kimbrel Saga has reached a conclusion, I'm ready to move on to a discussion of who we might target and the price we might pay.

    Among teams likely to be sellers there are quite a few options: Giles (Blue Jays), Kennedy (Royals), Smith (Giants), Watson (Giants), Colome (White Sox), Greene (Tigers).

    I will focus on three from this group that I'm especially interested in.

    Will Smith is having a second consecutive fantastic season. 2.01 FIP this year after 2.07 FIP in 2018. This season he has a K rate of 12.7 and a BB rate of 1.6. That's elite. He produced 2 WAR last year and is on track to exceed that this year. His salary this year is 4.2M and he will be a free agent after the season. If we get him at the deadline, we would to project him at 1 WAR in the second half and pay a 50% contenders premium. The salary is low enough to ignore in terms of calculating surplus value. We would have to send the Giants prospects worth about 1.5 WAR. Who might that be? I would give the Giants a list of 5 players and let them choose 2. The list would look something like this: Allard, de la Cruz, Demeritte, Kingman and Jenista. If they are smart, the Giants will ask for a single higher rated player than the guys on this list. But that would be my initial offer.

    Ian Kennedy has pitched to a 2.27 FIP this season after making the move to the pen. He doesn't have Smith's record as a reliever but he has been almost as good. This season his K rate is 10.9 and BB rate is 1.5. By comparison Luke Jackson has a K rate of 12.7, a BB rate of 2.4 and FIP of 2.55. If we get Kennedy at the deadline, we would project him at 1 WAR in the second half and with the contenders premium we would have to value it at 1.5 WAR. Unlike Smith, Kennedy has a big contract, calling for 16.5M this year and next. He is being paid the equivalent of 2 WAR per year. Surplus value with that contract is minimal. I think we can get him for one of the players I listed in my discussion of Smith. If the Royals want more I would ask them to pick up half of his 2020 salary and offer him 2 players from the list. Again if they were smart I would expect the Royals to ask for a higher rate prospect rather than 2 players from that list. But that would be my initial offer.

    Now for Ken Giles. He has been unbelievable so far this year. FIP of 1.16. K rate of 15.1. BB rate of 2.5. Probably not fully sustainable. I would also project him at 1 WAR in the second half, which with the contenders premium is worth 1.5 WAR. He is making 6.3M this year and will get a raise to 8-9M in 2020, which is his final arb year. I would project him at 2 WAR in 2019. So surplus value of about 2.5 over the period we would have to control. He will cost more in prospect capital than Smith or Kennedy. I would offer him one of: Wentz, Ynoa or Weigel. That would be the opening offer. We would probably have to sweeten it a little.
    "I am a victim, I will tell you. I am a victim."

    "I am your retribution."

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to nsacpi For This Useful Post:

    JohnAdcox (06-06-2019)

  3. #2
    It's OVER 5,000! Jaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    7,309
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    8,202
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,344
    Thanked in
    1,625 Posts
    I think AA has shown so far that he doesn't place much value on control of relievers, so I can't see paying the price for Giles.

    Of those options, I think that Kennedy and his entire contract makes the most sense. O'Days contract going away next year minimizes the salary increase we would take, and taking the entire contract minimizes the prospect value we would spend.
    Go get him!

    Founding member of the Whiny Little Bitches and Pricks Club

  4. #3
    It's OVER 5,000! Tapate50's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    24,264
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    9,058
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5,693
    Thanked in
    3,881 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaw View Post
    I think AA has shown so far that he doesn't place much value on control of relievers, so I can't see paying the price for Giles.

    Of those options, I think that Kennedy and his entire contract makes the most sense. O'Days contract going away next year minimizes the salary increase we would take, and taking the entire contract minimizes the prospect value we would spend.
    Kennedy would most likely come with some major salary relief. I doubt anyone’s in a spot to add him at full price.
    Ivermectin Man

  5. #4
    It's OVER 5,000! Jaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    7,309
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    8,202
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,344
    Thanked in
    1,625 Posts
    I agree that's most likely, I just don't think it's the best move for the Braves. And if we had room to offer Brantley more than he got, then we should have room to add Kennedy's salary.
    Go get him!

    Founding member of the Whiny Little Bitches and Pricks Club

  6. #5
    Expects Yuge Games nsacpi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    47,433
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,704
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    11,384
    Thanked in
    7,533 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaw View Post
    I agree that's most likely, I just don't think it's the best move for the Braves. And if we had room to offer Brantley more than he got, then we should have room to add Kennedy's salary.
    I would add all Kennedy's remaining 2019 salary and have interest in the Royals picking up part of the 2020 salary. This would represent a compromise that somewhat holds down prospect cost, uses the financial flexibility we have this year, and saves a bit in 2020.

    I think Giles is a bit less likely for us than Smith and Kennedy. As more of an established closer, some teams might be willing to pay a closer's premium in addition to the contender's premium. I'm ok with paying the latter but not the former. But if we can get Giles for one of Wentz, Ynoa or Weigel, I would do it in a heartbeat.
    Last edited by nsacpi; 06-06-2019 at 08:56 AM.
    "I am a victim, I will tell you. I am a victim."

    "I am your retribution."

  7. #6
    NL Rookie of the Year
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    2,469
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    431
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    577
    Thanked in
    376 Posts
    Greene and Smith make the most sense to me. Zaidi and AA are close and worked together on the big Dodgers deal with Kemp, so I think dealing with the Giants is a good possibility. Greene makes sense as he has another season of control and probably won't cost too much

  8. #7
    It's OVER 5,000!
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    7,772
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    270
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,491
    Thanked in
    1,150 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaw View Post
    I think AA has shown so far that he doesn't place much value on control of relievers, so I can't see paying the price for Giles.

    Of those options, I think that Kennedy and his entire contract makes the most sense. O'Days contract going away next year minimizes the salary increase we would take, and taking the entire contract minimizes the prospect value we would spend.
    Pretty clearly the braves are not taking on a two year salary like Ian Kennedy’s for the bullpen.

    There would have to be a lot of money coming back.

    If rumors of the braves not being “comfortable” with a one year pro-rated deal at the QO for keuchel, it will be a lot of money coming back for both seasons.

    Frankly, if you are willing to take on all kennedy’s money to save a prospect, why not go one extra year for Kimbrel who is a better bet to maintain performance.

  9. #8
    Expects Yuge Games nsacpi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    47,433
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,704
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    11,384
    Thanked in
    7,533 Posts
    Shane Greene has pitched to a 3.44 FIP this year. K rate of 10.1 and BB rate of 2.5. Good numbers but not quite as good as the others I've discussed. Salary this year is 4M and will probably go up to about 6M next year. After 2020 he is a free agent. Expected surplus value (with contender's premium rolled in) total of 1.0-1.5 remaining time of contractual control. I think he would cost about the same as Smith, even with the extra year of control.
    "I am a victim, I will tell you. I am a victim."

    "I am your retribution."

  10. #9
    On BBA's Top 100 Prospects List PurpleBrave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    725
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    45
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    192
    Thanked in
    110 Posts
    I expect us to do something like ray king for the league minimum

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to PurpleBrave For This Useful Post:

    cajunrevenge (06-12-2019)

  12. #10
    Expects Yuge Games nsacpi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    47,433
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,704
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    11,384
    Thanked in
    7,533 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Southcack77 View Post
    Pretty clearly the braves are not taking on a two year salary like Ian Kennedy’s for the bullpen.

    There would have to be a lot of money coming back.

    If rumors of the braves not being “comfortable” with a one year pro-rated deal at the QO for keuchel, it will be a lot of money coming back for both seasons.

    Frankly, if you are willing to take on all kennedy’s money to save a prospect, why not go one extra year for Kimbrel who is a better bet to maintain performance.
    The two scenarios to be considered are:

    Kennedy with the Royals kicking in half of his 2020 salary. We end up paying 16.5M for 1.5 years of control.

    With Kimbrel the price is 42M over 2.5 years of control.

    Cost per year is 11.0 M for Kennedy.

    Cost per year is 16.8 for Kimbrel.

    The difference in cost per year favors Kimbrel (when accounting for his likely superior production). The extra year of exposure favors Kennedy. We also have to give up two middling prospects in the scenario I laid out. You can argue it both ways. I don't think breaking it down this way presents a slam dunk for one case or the other.
    "I am a victim, I will tell you. I am a victim."

    "I am your retribution."

  13. #11
    Expects Yuge Games nsacpi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    47,433
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,704
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    11,384
    Thanked in
    7,533 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleBrave View Post
    I expect us to do something like ray king for the league minimum
    Actually there are some bargain basement options that I wouldn't be surprised to see AA kick the tires on. For example, Diekman is having a decent season with the Royals. I'd like to see a move that gives the pen more of an upgrade. We might see one major move and one bargain basement move.
    Last edited by nsacpi; 06-06-2019 at 09:35 AM.
    "I am a victim, I will tell you. I am a victim."

    "I am your retribution."

  14. #12
    It's OVER 5,000!
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    7,772
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    270
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,491
    Thanked in
    1,150 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by nsacpi View Post
    The two scenarios to be considered are:

    Kennedy with the Royals kicking in half of his 2020 salary. We end up paying 16.5M for 1.5 years of control.

    With Kimbrel the price is 42M over 2.5 years of control.

    Cost per year is 11.0 M for Kennedy.

    Cost per year is 16.8 for Kimbrel.

    The difference in cost per year favors Kimbrel (when accounting for his likely superior production). The extra year of exposure favors Kennedy. We also have to give up two middling prospects in the scenario I laid out. You can argue it both ways. I don't think breaking it down this way presents a slam dunk for one case or the other.
    I think the answer is that the braves will likely do neither.

    Maybe if there is more in the deal with royals...plus money.

  15. #13
    Expects Yuge Games nsacpi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    47,433
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,704
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    11,384
    Thanked in
    7,533 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Southcack77 View Post
    I think the answer is that the braves will likely do neither.
    I think they will make one significant pen acquisition.
    "I am a victim, I will tell you. I am a victim."

    "I am your retribution."

  16. #14
    Hessmania Forever
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    13,995
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    4,888
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    7,678
    Thanked in
    4,941 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by nsacpi View Post
    Actually there are some bargain basement options that I wouldn't be surprised to see AA kick the tires on. For example, Diekman is having a decent season with the Royals. I'd like to see a move that gives the pen more of an upgrade. But we might see one major move and one bargain basement move.
    Boxberger has been up-and-down for his career, but he's another guy who has had some success that would come at an extremely low price. We already picked up Swarzak, so Boxberger is probably redundant. I'd be down with Diekman as well.

  17. #15
    It's OVER 5,000!
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    7,772
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    270
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,491
    Thanked in
    1,150 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by nsacpi View Post
    I think they will make one significant pen acquisition.
    They’ll do something for sure, but my guess is they don’t see it as an urgent problemor something worth putting big resources into.

    Else the pen would look different than it does.

  18. #16
    On BBA's Top 100 Prospects List PurpleBrave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    725
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    45
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    192
    Thanked in
    110 Posts
    Diekman would be solid. Everyone fixated on will smith, but dyson would be a solid add too

  19. #17
    Approaching Buddy Hernandez Territory
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    952
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    188
    Thanked in
    148 Posts
    I don’t think the Braves should do anything.
    They clearly don’t think they are in a true title window with this team(which I agree with since I think we are a year ahead of schedule)cause if they did they would have gotten the one or two pieces that were free agents that were on the market instead of giving up prospects for lesser options.
    I say we use our young pitchers to try to help the rotation and pen and save all our bullets for next season..(unless we don’t have any in which case we may as well be content with being a fringe contender for the foreseeable future)

  20. The Following User Says Thank You to Buzzworm For This Useful Post:

    JohnAdcox (06-06-2019)

  21. #18
    "What is a clvclv"
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Nebo, NC
    Posts
    9,634
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    5,354
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,340
    Thanked in
    1,628 Posts
    Braves don't need pen help - didn't need it over the winter, don't need it now. Dig real hard and you'll find that the new QWERTYASDFGZXCVB Metric shows that these guys are actually the best group of RPs in the game.
    Has there EVER been a statement and question a certain someone should absolutely never have made and asked publicly more than...

    Kinda pathetic to see yourself as a message board knight in shining armor. How impotent does someone have to be in real life to resort to playing hero on a message board?

  22. #19
    Expects Yuge Games nsacpi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    47,433
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,704
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    11,384
    Thanked in
    7,533 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by clvclv View Post
    Braves don't need pen help - didn't need it over the winter, don't need it now. Dig real hard and you'll find that the new QWERTYASDFGZXCVB Metric shows that these guys are actually the best group of RPs in the game.
    that's why AA skipped the winter meetings...so he could work on this new metric
    "I am a victim, I will tell you. I am a victim."

    "I am your retribution."

  23. #20
    It's OVER 5,000!
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    26,261
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    34
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    10,000
    Thanked in
    6,108 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by clvclv View Post
    Braves don't need pen help - didn't need it over the winter, don't need it now. Dig real hard and you'll find that the new QWERTYASDFGZXCVB Metric shows that these guys are actually the best group of RPs in the game.
    Aaaaaand....derp...all over this thread.

Similar Threads

  1. Potential In Season Trade Targets
    By BeanieAntics in forum 2023: Celebrating Our 10th Year Here
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 04-05-2019, 07:37 PM
  2. 2018 Offseason And Targets
    By clvclv in forum 2023: Celebrating Our 10th Year Here
    Replies: 11578
    Last Post: 03-26-2019, 07:29 PM
  3. 2019 Free Agent Targets
    By rico43 in forum 2023: Celebrating Our 10th Year Here
    Replies: 138
    Last Post: 06-13-2018, 08:43 PM
  4. Potential 2016 Offseason Targets
    By clvclv in forum 2023: Celebrating Our 10th Year Here
    Replies: 166
    Last Post: 10-08-2016, 02:37 AM
  5. Possible future trade targets..
    By blueagleace1 in forum 2023: Celebrating Our 10th Year Here
    Replies: 101
    Last Post: 07-26-2015, 10:31 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •