Braves Need to Brace for assult on Logo, Chop, History in 2021

[BeanieAntics]

If you were starting a team now, you probably wouldn't lean into the whole appropriation thing and making a theme park caricature of a culture, but I agree that it's a lot more neutral than "Redskins."

the whole Tomahawk chop is basically rooted in a 50s/60s Hollywood concept of how to portray Native Americans. Thus brass band war chants, because that's what the guy doing Hollywood Western scores thought sounded cool.

It's about as valid a portrayal of history or tradition as "talk like a pirate day."

Is this really an important thing to protect for the children? I don't really think so. I'm in it to watch baseball myself.

I absolutely 100% wouldn't avoid it. I would consider all nicknames and picked the one I liked best. If that ended up being "Chiefs" or "Braves", then so be it. Why do people think that historically persecuted minorities have to be treated differently than white people in 2019? They are ****ing human beings. There is no reason to avoid using the term Braves, just as there would be no reason to avoid using the term "Jacobites" or something in reference to the persecuted Scots in the 18th century.

If there is 1 word in the English language I hate, its appropriation. Its the dumbest concept I've ever heard in my life. People have literally been borrowing from other cultures for the entire history of everything and literally nobody was ever offended by it until some guy on twitter pointed it out 5 years ago.

And it doesn't matter if its important enough to protect for our "children" or even our "adults"... People enjoy doing it and it doesn't hurt anyone. Well, it might hurt someone's feelings or something, but like I've said now numerous times, people get offended by common things all the time. Its incredibly silly if someone gets wound up over something as benign as an in game chant.

[Enscheff]

I'm not Native American, or a minority in any sense, but isn't there a difference between a mocking gesture and one that's celebratory?

Folks are doing the chop because Native American warriors were tough, feared, and awesome...the exact qualities folks want to see in their favorite sports team.

Teams are named because they like the positive associations with the mascot. Braves, Tigers, Pirates, Yankees...all seem like positive things. But that's just the opinion of a non-woke white guy.

[50PoundHead]

Fat shaming much???

It would promote a rigorous off-season training regimen. Every player would show up in the spring in the BSOML!

[BeanieAntics]

I don't have a problem with changing the name. I don't even have a problem with changing the name because of pressure from some numbskulls writing on Twitter or The Atlantic. It's Liberty Media's team and they can do what they like with it.

I also don't have a problem with any non partisan organizations representing actual Native Americans who are offended by any of the Braves symbolism. I would like to hear details and, as Super says, nuance, but that's a legitimate position that deserves to be heard and discussed with an open mind.

My problem is with the usual suspects taking up the torch of victimhood on behalf of others who they believe just aren't enlightened enough to do it themselves, and with the attitude that we should just cave to these people. No. We should mock these people's position, we should point out their hypocrisy, we should tell them, as the Depression-era man who raised me used to say, to hoe their own row. We should never let them set the agenda, or have a speaking part in an adult conversation.

This is basically how I feel. If Liberty Media wants to change things, that is fine. They are their own business and can do what they want, especially if they think something like this might affect business. But seriously screw all the twitter and tumblr folk who take up this cause and pretend that they are the supreme moral arbitors for what is and is not racist and what is or is not offensive.

[Southcack77]

I agree with all of this wholeheartedly.

Now, I'm completely ignorant to the actual facts in this case regarding who's upset and requesting changes, but I too am sick of the "woke" people on Twitter being catered to simply because they are the loudest group. It's getting beyond ridiculous with the hyper-PC era...when Keanu Reves is lauded for not putting his hands on a woman when taking a friendly picture with them as if that's the new normal form of respectful man...seriously?

Sorry to get political, but the Libtards need to realize why they can't win elections against child molesters and con men.

to be fair, they beat the child molester in Alabama of all places.

one can only hope they beat the con man next time around.

Defending something based on your dislike of some subset of the people who would like for the thing to stop isn't really a particularly logical argument. You ought to just look at the thing and decide whether it's a good idea.

I want the chop regardless of what Native Americans think about it and regardless of whether it makes sense or whether there is any real harm in getting rid of it, because there are some very annoying people on twitter who will claim it as a "woke" victory is a very understandable impulse, but probably not how we ought to decide things if we really think about it.

[BeanieAntics]

I'm not Native American, or a minority in any sense, but isn't there a difference between a mocking gesture and one that's celebratory?

Folks are doing the chop because Native American warriors were tough, feared, and awesome...the exact qualities folks want to see in their favorite sports team.

This. I love the Braves logo and nickname and traditions because it makes Native American culture look badass. I'm about 1/8th Choctaw on my mother's side and I talked with my great grandmother about this before she died last year when the whole Redskins controversy was happening. She had no idea what the big deal was, even though I think "Redskins" has a much better argument for actually being removed. I showed her a video of the chop and she thought it was really cool and done with a proper amount of admiration and respect.

[msstate7]

I'm not Native American, or a minority in any sense, but isn't there a difference between a mocking gesture and one that's celebratory?

Folks are doing the chop because Native American warriors were tough, feared, and awesome...the exact qualities folks want to see in their favorite sports team.

Exactly.

And teams are named after BA things, not teletubbies, roly polies, etc

[TheBravos]

I have American Indian heritage. I just don’t get it. It is not in the least offensive and also naming the team “Braves” should mean you have high respect for them.

On the flip side, I “can” understand how Redskins could be very offensive. Imagine if a team was named the black skins or yellow skins??

[Enscheff]

I want the chop regardless of what Native Americans think about it and regardless of whether it makes sense or whether there is any real harm in getting rid of it, because there are some very annoying people on twitter who will claim it as a "woke" victory is a very understandable impulse, but probably not how we ought to decide things if we really think about it.

I don't think Jaw, or myself, or anyone else agreeing with him, want to keep the chop to spite the "woke" crowd. I'm sick of them regardless of the issue at hand.

What Jaw said, and I agree with, is if Native Americans are truly offended in large enough numbers (what determines "large enough" isn't something I can answer), then sit down and figure out something that isn't offensive.

If it's just some dumb twat on Twitter riling up the other Twits...ignore them.

I have no idea what the actual facts are in this particular case, but my opinion of the "woke" crowd remains.

[CyYoung31]

I would really hate to live in a world where I had to worry about every single thing I did on the off chance that it might bother or offend someone. People can take offense to really subjective things.

I even think racism is pretty subjective nowadays. You have some people who actively search for racism and can find it in anything, some people who never think anything is racist, and people who are, you know, normal.

Southcack thinks the chop is racist. That's his opinion. I think its maybe slightly stupid and mildly demeaning, but I think racist is too strong of a word. Its about as racist as Lucky the Leprechaun is towards Irish people. Its a caricature, but not all racial caricatures have to be racist. Labeling something as racist wields too much power and has too much stigma attached to it for me to label silly things like an in game chant like that.

It just seems like we want to suck the fun out of everything because there is a small minority of people who will yell about it on twitter. If we have to get rid of the Tomahawk Chop, fine, I guess I could compromise on that even if I don't like it. But if we have to get rid of the Tomahawk Logo or the name "Braves" itself then that would be beyond silly at that point.

Yeah, getting rid of the Braves moniker and/or tomahawk logo is where I draw the line, as there is nothing inherently misrepresentative or offensive about either of those things. Not to mention they’re an iconic staple of the oldest franchise in sports.

[BeanieAntics]

I agree with all of this wholeheartedly.

Now, I'm completely ignorant to the actual facts in this case regarding who's upset and requesting changes, but I too am sick of the "woke" people on Twitter being catered to simply because they are the loudest group. It's getting beyond ridiculous with the hyper-PC era...when Keanu Reves is lauded for not putting his hands on a woman when taking a friendly picture with them as if that's the new normal form of respectful man...seriously?

Sorry to get political, but the Libtards need to realize why they can't win elections against child molesters and con men.

You know, this is actually a good point. As a pretty centrist individual who may lean very slightly to the right, but really dislikes Trump, it amazes me that the left doesn't understand how Trump won. He won because the woke brigade keeps insisting that everyday normal things that people have been used to for years are racist or sexist or homophobic or whatever. People in Iowa see people on the left going insane with this ****, when typically they might be your normal blue collar union-Dem voter. Same for all the other states in the Midwest. They just don't get the woke agenda that has arisen from the coastal leftists and its really off putting to them.

So if you want an answer to what the cost of doing this might be, that is a pretty good answer. You're going to piss off the more traditional wing of the left and that is a base that you desperately need right now if you want to get rid of the orange man.

And that doesn't mean that we shouldn't get rid of things that are, you know, obviously racist to everyone. It just means we should stop making literally everything racist and banning fans from the stadium for playing the circle game on TV (Yes, this is real. It happened at Wrigley Field).

[BeanieAntics]

I really think that someone should poll a large sample of different Native American tribes to see how many of them actually care or are offended by this.

They should do it for every sports team that has something to do with them. The Indians, the Chiefs, The Braves, The Redskins, The Blackhawks, The Seminoles... All of them. I'd be really interested to see how many were actually offended and how much of this is just white people being offended on their behalf.

[The Chosen One]

Speaking of PC crowd, lots of people are up in arms about Zendaya being the new MJ in Spider-man, even though her name is Michelle and not Mary Jane.

Seems like it's the same crowd that's upset the new Little Mermaid lead is not a white redhead but a young black girl. I am pretty confident this campaign isn't being led by "woke leftists".

I agree with Chef and Jaw here on the Chop thing.

[The Chosen One]

I really think that someone should poll a large sample of different Native American tribes to see how many of them actually care or are offended by this.

They should do it for every sports team that has something to do with them. The Indians, the Chiefs, The Braves, The Redskins, The Blackhawks, The Seminoles... All of them. I'd be really interested to see how many were actually offended and how much of this is just white people being offended on their behalf.

I always thought FSU and the Florida Seminole Tribe (federally recognized) actually work together and that's why the Seminole Tribe allows them to do some things. I don't believe the Indians, Braves, Chiefs, Skins, or Hawks have that same type of working relationship with any Tribes.

[Southcack77]

I absolutely 100% wouldn't avoid it. I would consider all nicknames and picked the one I liked best. If that ended up being "Chiefs" or "Braves", then so be it. Why do people think that historically persecuted minorities have to be treated differently than white people in 2019? They are ****ing human beings. There is no reason to avoid using the term Braves, just as there would be no reason to avoid using the term "Jacobites" or something in reference to the persecuted Scots in the 18th century.

If there is 1 word in the English language I hate, its appropriation. Its the dumbest concept I've ever heard in my life. People have literally been borrowing from other cultures for the entire history of everything and literally nobody was ever offended by it until some guy on twitter pointed it out 5 years ago.

And it doesn't matter if its important enough to protect for our "children" or even our "adults"... People enjoy doing it and it doesn't hurt anyone. Well, it might hurt someone's feelings or something, but like I've said now numerous times, people get offended by common things all the time. Its incredibly silly if someone gets wound up over something as benign as an in game chant.

I was trying to use the lingo, maybe I didn't quite get it right.

Good rule of thumb in 2019 is that a new Mascot isn't going be steeped in a silly caricature of any culture, white, black or other.

We have some residual examples. Some of them don't seem to upset anyone. Others apparently do.

Native American groups seem to generally not like caricatures of their culture.

So with that in hand you can either decide that a silly thing that happens at a baseball game is either too important to ever give up or you could you know, not do it any more if it bothers people.

I guess that's something that ultimately is a business decision and it doesn't bother me enough to boycott or protest so that's about where I am. But if you ask me, I'll put my two cents in.

[Tapate50]

To take a different viewpoint on this, I don't think it does the Native American culture any net good to do away with things like this. As CY pointed out earlier, its a people that are struggling MIGHTILY to hold on and present their history to the rest of the world. This wouldn't keep it any more "top of mind" for the casual fan at all. It would almost help to fade it into history it would seem.

[The Chosen One]

https://unicomm.fsu.edu/messages/rel...tribe-florida/

For almost 70 years, Florida State has worked closely, side by side, with the Seminole Tribe of Florida. The relationship, built on respect, is so mutually supportive that in 2005 the tribe — which rarely puts such things in writing — took an unprecedented, historic step with a public declaration of support. The Seminole Tribe invited the university president at that time, T.K. Wetherell, to Big Cypress Reservation to receive a written resolution from the Tribal Council affirming its enthusiastic support for the university's use of the Seminole name, logos and images. Subsequently, Chief Jerry Haney of the Seminole Tribe of Oklahoma also publicly stated his support.




The council's action was recognition of Florida State's continued collaboration with the tribe to 1) include prominent participation by tribal members in many of the university's most meaningful events, and 2) seek advice and direction to ensure tribal imagery is authentic. The university continues to welcome these opportunities to expose our students, faculty, staff and alumni to the Seminoles' history and traditions and reflects what we value as an institution — multiculturalism and diversity. In return, the Seminoles’ culture and lore are kept alive.

[BeanieAntics]

Speaking of PC crowd, lots of people are up in arms about Zendaya being the new MJ in Spider-man, even though her name is Michelle and not Mary Jane.

Seems like it's the same crowd that's upset the new Little Mermaid lead is not a white redhead but a young black girl. I am pretty confident this campaign isn't being led by "woke leftists".

I agree with Chef and Jaw here on the Chop thing.

Yes, the people on the right who were pissed off about these things or Ciri not being white in the new Witcher remake were equally as dumb as the people who are leading the woke brigade.

Like I said in my first post, its a race to see who can be the most outraged by the most benign thing. Eventually the left is going to be calling doorknobs racist and the right is going to be calling car tires "culturally marxist" and everyone is going to transcend into another space-time of wokeness, becoming Woke Buddhas.

[The Chosen One]

To take a different viewpoint on this, I don't think it does the Native American culture any net good to do away with things like this. As CY pointed out earlier, its a people that are struggling MIGHTILY to hold on and present their history to the rest of the world. This wouldn't keep it any more "top of mind" for the casual fan at all. It would almost help to fade it into history it would seem.

As a biased fan of baseball, I loved the Chief Wahoo Indians hat. But I understand why they did away with it. I still own one as I collect a hat in every city I travel to.

FSU and the Seminole tribe have a working relationship. So they promote the best aspects of their history and culture.

I think Redskin is an obvious slang. Blackhawks, Braves, Chiefs seem pretty neutral.

[Southcack77]

You know, this is actually a good point. As a pretty centrist individual who may lean very slightly to the right, but really dislikes Trump, it amazes me that the left doesn't understand how Trump won. He won because the woke brigade keeps insisting that everyday normal things that people have been used to for years are racist or sexist or homophobic or whatever. People in Iowa see people on the left going insane with this ****, when typically they might be your normal blue collar union-Dem voter. Same for all the other states in the Midwest. They just don't get the woke agenda that has arisen from the coastal leftists and its really off putting to them.

So if you want an answer to what the cost of doing this might be, that is a pretty good answer. You're going to piss off the more traditional wing of the left and that is a base that you desperately need right now if you want to get rid of the orange man.

And that doesn't mean that we shouldn't get rid of things that are, you know, obviously racist to everyone. It just means we should stop making literally everything racist and banning fans from the stadium for playing the circle game on TV (Yes, this is real. It happened at Wrigley Field).

Realistically, Trump won because of Hillary Clinton and general swing voter dissatisfaction with the status quo in Washington.

It's also why Obama won.

I agree that a Democratic candidate who campaigns on wokeness and scolding regular people is going to result in a pretty close election and possibly a second Trump term. Just about any other strategy probably wins.