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Thread: GDT 6/13/19: Keep the steak alive

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    Quote Originally Posted by nsacpi View Post
    I said we had extra high round picks in those years. By high round I mean first round, supplemental, second, and third.

    The extra picks I am specifically referring to are Soroka (extra first round), Riley (supplemental before the second round), Minter (supplemental before the third round), Wentz, (supplemental before the second round), Cumberland (supplemental before the third round).
    and? they weren't high picks. they were good finds for where they were drafted. try and discount it all you want, it doesn't change the fact that, in similar draft spots for 4 years straight, Wren drafted absolute, certified duds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nsacpi View Post
    I dunno. This remains an open question. We were generally not drafting high in the Wren years. But those drafts (2010-2014) produced Simmons, Wood, Gattis, Ahmed, Drury, La Stella, Caratini, Sobotka, Webb.

    Our first picks in those years were #35, #28 #21, #31, #32

    In the Hartcoppy years, we picked at #14, #3, #5. In those years, we often had multiple extra picks in the early rounds. So I would hope we got more out of those drafts. Adjusted for where we were picking and the number of extra picks, I'm not so sure the results are so great. I've always loved the 2015 draft. But the next two don't look so great, considering where we were drafting.
    Even if Wren wasnt drafting high, those drafts were piss poor. Sure we were picking much higher with Coppy but he at least found some good picks outside of the 1st rounders. Wilson, Minter, Waters, Riley, Muller, Wiegel, Wentz to name a few. Soroka was also picked 28th, right around where Wren was picking in his drafts.

    It was the right move to hire AA, but Coppy's drafts were good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heyward View Post
    Even if Wren wasnt drafting high, those drafts were piss poor. Sure we were picking much higher with Coppy but he at least found some good picks outside of the 1st rounders. Wilson, Minter, Waters, Riley, Muller, Wiegel, Wentz to name a few. Soroka was also picked 28th, right around where Wren was picking in his drafts.

    It was the right move to hire AA, but Coppy's drafts were good.
    I think there is a misunderstanding about what a typical draft produces. One impact player and 3-4 others who make the majors as marginal players. And drafts without a pick in the first 30 tend obviously to produce less. Drafts with picks in the top 10 and multiple extra early picks should produce more.
    Last edited by nsacpi; 07-15-2019 at 09:55 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heyward View Post
    Even if Wren wasnt drafting high, those drafts were piss poor. Sure we were picking much higher with Coppy but he at least found some good picks outside of the 1st rounders. Wilson, Minter, Waters, Riley, Muller, Wiegel, Wentz to name a few. Soroka was also picked 28th, right around where Wren was picking in his drafts.

    It was the right move to hire AA, but Coppy's drafts were good.
    Nuance is hard. Particularly when you have to give credit to someone that you disagree with.

    Coppy might have been Eddie Haskell, but the club is where it is because of the moves that his front office made.

    Alex has pretty much just been a caretaker to this point. We'll learn more about him as he starts putting chips in the middle. I like him a lot so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Southcack77 View Post
    Nuance is hard. Particularly when you have to give credit to someone that you disagree with.

    Coppy might have been Eddie Haskell, but the club is where it is because of the moves that his front office made.

    Alex has pretty much just been a caretaker to this point. We'll learn more about him as he starts putting chips in the middle. I like him a lot so far.
    I do shudder to think what Coppy would have done if what happened, didnt happen. Like does he trade Ozzie, does he move Riley plus for JTR. What FA's would he sign, etc. AA hasnt done anything stupid so far. Trades he made didnt hurt the farm, FA signings have been just 1 year deals. He's admitted he doesnt like signing RP's to long-term deals unless the value is too good to pass up. I didnt love what Coppy did but it doesnt take a genius to admit his drafts were really good, even if he had higher draft slots than the previous regime.

    But after this year, i think he'll have to start doing more than that if the Braves are ever gonna get past the Dodgers. Hell who knows, maybe he makes a big push at the trade deadline and makes moves we dont see coming.

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    The rebuild built on pitching has resulted us needing to trade for a pitcher at the deadline last year, sign one for 13m half year this year, and likely will need to trade for yet another this July.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sturg33 View Post
    The rebuild built on pitching has resulted us needing to trade for a pitcher at the deadline last year, sign one for 13m half year this year, and likely will need to trade for yet another this July.
    1st place last year
    1st place this year (94 games in)
    Top 5 farm system

    Maybe this rebuild is going pretty well

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    Quote Originally Posted by msstate7 View Post
    1st place last year
    1st place this year (94 games in)
    Top 5 farm system

    Maybe this rebuild is going pretty well
    4 of the 5 top fWAR producers for the Braves are here because of Wren/AA

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    Quote Originally Posted by sturg33 View Post
    The rebuild built on pitching has resulted us needing to trade for a pitcher at the deadline last year, sign one for 13m half year this year, and likely will need to trade for yet another this July.
    The pitching is still there but not proven. I think it is a bit unfair to say this as a failure. Folty /wisler/Blair have been disappointing in different ways. But there is a lot more than those guys. And Folty and Newk might have a say in this before it is all said and done.
    Coppy

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    Quote Originally Posted by sturg33 View Post
    The rebuild built on pitching has resulted us needing to trade for a pitcher at the deadline last year, sign one for 13m half year this year, and likely will need to trade for yet another this July.
    Alot of the pitching is still in the minors but guys like Newk, Folty, Gausman, etc, even Touki as SP have been dissapointing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thewupk View Post
    4 of the 5 top fWAR producers for the Braves are here because of Wren/AA

    Those guys helped speed up the rebuild. I think a normal rebuild curve would have us being good this year with our true competition year being next. Instead we got lucky and hit on guys like acuna and Ozzie and was handed dansby. The rebuild was done just fine. Both past regimes had there say in it. Both past regimes had bungles. The Johns disgraced themselves.
    Coppy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heyward View Post
    Alot of the pitching is still in the minors but guys like Newk, Folty, Gausman, etc, even Touki as SP have been dissapointing.

    Touki is what 22. Really?!?! Newk and Folty are not done yet. Gas was a trade and not sure how he fits in this conversation.
    Coppy

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    Quote Originally Posted by bravesfanMatt View Post
    Touki is what 22. Really?!?! Newk and Folty are not done yet. Gas was a trade and not sure how he fits in this conversation.
    I was just throwing in the pitchers that have been dissapointing and will what likely result AA in having to go get a starter at the deadline.

    But yes, they're still young.

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    I do find it interesting with all the pitching we drafted and/or got in those trades, it's the hitters that have developed - Acuna, Albies, Swanson, Riley, Pache, and Waters. We only got one of those in the sell-off trades.

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    Isn't one sign of a successful rebuild that you have the prospect capital to go get what you need at the dead line?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heyward View Post
    I do shudder to think what Coppy would have done if what happened, didnt happen. Like does he trade Ozzie, does he move Riley plus for JTR. What FA's would he sign, etc. AA hasnt done anything stupid so far. Trades he made didnt hurt the farm, FA signings have been just 1 year deals. He's admitted he doesnt like signing RP's to long-term deals unless the value is too good to pass up. I didnt love what Coppy did but it doesnt take a genius to admit his drafts were really good, even if he had higher draft slots than the previous regime.

    But after this year, i think he'll have to start doing more than that if the Braves are ever gonna get past the Dodgers. Hell who knows, maybe he makes a big push at the trade deadline and makes moves we dont see coming.

    I do not really understand the fear of Coppy trading away assets, but I guess he may well have done. I don't know. No real reason to think he would have aside from the all the pressure that the fans and media tried to put on Alex to do just that this offseason. Alex at least had the both the experience of having regretted some moves and the natural reticence of being new, and also the relative lack of pressure of being new and replacing a deposed regime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heyward View Post
    I was just throwing in the pitchers that have been dissapointing and will what likely result AA in having to go get a starter at the deadline.

    But yes, they're still young.
    I understand. I think most forget we got good faster than anticipated. A lot of these guys should be pitching on bad teams while learning the mlb game. Instead they are in the minors or in the pen because we are winning and can’t let them “take their lumps”. Our pitching is behind the rest of the group and that is not a bad problem to have.
    Coppy

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    Quote Originally Posted by thewupk View Post
    4 of the 5 top fWAR producers for the Braves are here because of Wren/AA
    And some consideration needs to be given to the resources expended during the rebuild phase. This would include the major league talent traded away, draft picks spent (including accounting for where we drafted, # of picks, etc), $$ spent on international signings, $$ spent on acquiring domestic talent (Touki).

    This rebuild phase (aka the Hartcoppy years) featured lavish expenditure of resources for a not terribly impressive return in terms of prospects. And it would be a downright pathetic return if not for transactions where Dave Stewart was the counterparty.
    Last edited by nsacpi; 07-15-2019 at 10:56 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bravesfanMatt View Post
    I understand. I think most forget we got good faster than anticipated. A lot of these guys should be pitching on bad teams while learning the mlb game. Instead they are in the minors or in the pen because we are winning and can’t let them “take their lumps”. Our pitching is behind the rest of the group and that is not a bad problem to have.
    Agreed with that, most times when you rebuild, or essentially blow it up, start from scratch, it takes 4-5 years before you get good if all things work out like you hope they do.

    Having some of those starters in the pen isnt a bad thing, depth is needed to get through an entire season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heyward View Post
    Alot of the pitching is still in the minors but guys like Newk, Folty, Gausman, etc, even Touki as SP have been dissapointing.
    I honestly do not see the Braves pitching results as disappointing.

    the bulk of the acquisitions have either been solid contributors at the major league level at young ages or have yet to get their shot.

    They've won two divisions now largely with internal pitching.

    I think expectations are a little out of whack with reality there.

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