Shanks Follows Up On His Heyward Article

[AUTiger7222]

One point that was missed is that Tex did an absolutely great job with the Braves. In right at a full season's work (157 games over the two seasons), he hit right at .300 with 106 runs scored, 37 homers, 134 RBI and 95 walks. Drew did very well as a Brave, too. In 145 games he hit .305, with 31 homers, 118 runs scored 93 RBI and 118 walks.

Those are two fine seasons right there.

Mark Teixeira wasn't the reason that trade turned into a huge bust. He did his job. But the Braves issues were they had no pitching aside from Huddy and Smoltz. JS made a criticial mistake in thinking that Teixeira would be able to turn a really good offense into the 1927 Yankees and that the Braves would be able to outscore everyone to the playoffs.

I still believe the worst thing that ever happened to the Braves was the Baby Braves of 2005. The only one that turned into a legit MLB player was Brian McCann. KJ has been alright but far too inconsistent in his career to be an impact starter. The rest were all busts that were exposed once they got around the league a few times. But JS and BC saw what happened and thought the train would keep keep on going when the reality was the Braves should have tore it down and rebuild. It wouldn't have taken all the way until 2010 to get back to being a playoff team.

[Julio3000]

Remember, our other prize pitching prospect at the time of the Drew deal was Bubba Nelson.

Also, +1 to jpx7 for the reason given for editing #52.

[jpx7]

Beane's Oakland teams have only made the playoffs 3 or 4 times since he's been there and I think won only 1 playoff series.

Not quite: he's been GM since 1998, and over that stretch of fifteen seasons they've made the playoffs six times (only one of which was a wild-card berth) — by no means a horrible percentage. They were better than .500 in three more of those seasons (and exactly .500 in a fourth), so that's nine winning and ten non-losing seasons in sixteen years.

As for the one playoff series victory: I'm not going to hang crapshoot eventualities on the GM — plus, only one of those series losses was non-competitive (0-4 loss to the Tigers in the 2006 ALCS), and all of their ALDS eliminations required the full five games.

[AUTiger7222]

I dunno. I think JS came along and benefited from all the great talent that Bobby Cox stockpiled. Some of his trades and signings were very good-Pendleton, Maddux, McGriff, Hudson, Sheffield. But he gave up Jason Schmidt who went on to have some dominant seasons. The fiasco involving the Millwood for Estrada trade was due to a big miscalculation on his part. He also traded away some pretty good young players for questionable returns, including Dye, Wainwright, Feliz, Andrus, Harrison, Saltalamacchia. One of his worst trades was LaRoche (a solid young power hitting first baseman) for Mike Gonzalez. A smart GM does not trade a solid young regular for a middle-of-the-road closer. That trade betrays a misunderstanding of the importance of a closer. Strangely enough he made a better trade that off-season to bring in another closer-Soriano for Horacio Ramirez.

On the whole I'd rate JS slightly above average. I rate the two guys who preceded him and succeeded him (Cox and Wren) much higher as GMs.

The Neagle for Schmidt trade was great. I remember there were a lot of questions about if Schmidt would ever live up to his potential. He finally did but with the Giants several years later. Neagle while largely ineffective down the stretch in 1996, pitched well in the playoffs that year and carried over into him having the best season of his career in 1997 for the Braves. His saw his performance decline a bit in 1998 but that was ok because 1998 was when Kevin Millwood came along. Neagle left in free agency that off-season and Millwood got his spot in the rotation.

[gilesfan]

Laroche for Gonzalez and the JD Drew trade at least made some sense. THere is no comparison.

[AUTiger7222]

Not quite: he's been GM since 1998, and over that stretch of sixteen seasons they've made the playoffs six times (only one of which was a wild-card berth) — by no means a horrible percentage. They were better than .500 in three more of those seasons (and exactly .500 in a fourth), so that's nine winning and ten non-losing seasons in sixteen years.

As for the one playoff series victory: I'm not going to hang crapshoot eventualities on the GM — plus, only one of those series losses was non-competitive (0-4 loss to the Tigers in the 2006 ALCS), and all of their ALDS eliminations required the full five games.

Ok. But since that 2006 ALCS lost they've made the playoffs just once and that was last year when they came from nowhere to make it. Last year was also the only winning season they've had since then with 1 year exactly at .500 and the rest losing seasons. His return for Huddy turned out to be absolutely nothing. The return on Mulder was great, Dan Haren for Mulder, he then flipped Haren a couple years later for Brett Anderson and Carlos Gonzalez from the Diamondbacks. But then made the ill fated decision to trade Cargo to the Rockies for Matt Holliday.

[jpx7]

Ok. But since that 2006 ALCS lost they've made the playoffs just once and that was last year when they came from nowhere to make it. Last year was also the only winning season they've had since then with 1 year exactly at .500 and the rest losing seasons. His return for Huddy turned out to be absolutely nothing. The return on Mulder was great, Dan Haren for Mulder, he then flipped Haren a couple years later for Brett Anderson and Carlos Gonzalez from the Diamondbacks. But then made the ill fated decision to trade Cargo to the Rockies for Matt Holliday.

I'm not disagreeing with the general assertion that Billy Beane has not been as good a GM as John Schuerholz was; however, on the balance, he's been pretty good, regardless of a few recent seasons of mediocrity.

Moreover: you said the A's had only made the playoffs "three or four times" in his tenure, which is patently false and definitely obscures the very good job he did early in his career (not to mention the fact that the organization seems to be on the upswing again after that stretch of down-years on which you're focusing).

[zitothebrave]

LaRoche for Gonzalez was a very bad trade. Especially since it set in train a series of events that led to Teixeira.

That's the biggest truth of them all.

We may even have had another playoff appearance (though severely unlikely) if we kept ROchey.Bottom line was that was a bad trade that was made worse by trading the farm for Tex.

Can't believe the Braves thought Thorman was legit.

[thethe]

Drew trade wasn't the worst. I mean sure Wainwright is arguably the best player traded in either deal, but the Braves traded 4 major league players for Tex.

Marquis is also going ot end up having a solid career. He could have been a back end starter for us for many years. I'm sorry, everyone knew Drew wasn't going to stay just like Teix wasn't going to stay. We traded one of the best pitchers of hte last decade away...a Georgia product who could have been a lifer. That was the worst trade. All the players traded for Teix were replaceable. The Teix deal would have been fine had we held onto him and just picked up the draft pick. That was the worst part of the deal.

[zitothebrave]

Marquis though had no value, Leo wasn't gonna let him stick around.

Drew had one of the greatest seasons of any Braves ever, and lead the team to the playoffs, that counters the trade on the other side. And I don't think Waino would be a lifer, too expensive, and the JS way is not to sign pitchers too long term and I don't think he'd let Wren either.

[thethe]

Marquis though had no value, Leo wasn't gonna let him stick around.

Drew had one of the greatest seasons of any Braves ever, and lead the team to the playoffs, that counters the trade on the other side. And I don't think Waino would be a lifer, too expensive, and the JS way is not to sign pitchers too long term and I don't think he'd let Wren either.

Who cares about going to the playoffs? Thats what the biggest killer was to the Braves. Keeping that stupid streak alive. Drew was good but everyone knew he wasn't staying. I am not going to play what ifs on how long Marquis/Waino would have stayed. All I know is that we kept a stupid streak alive and lost one of the top 5-10 pitchers for the next 15 years. Thats as bad of a trade as you can make.

[jpx7]

Who cares about going to the playoffs?

That's literally the point of each and every season.

All I know is that we kept a stupid streak alive and lost one of the top 5-10 pitchers for the next 15 years. That's as bad of a trade as you can make.

There was no reason to suspect, at the time, that Wainwright was destined for such greatness; he posted good, but not phenomenal, minor-league numbers with very good, but not phenomenal, stuff. Furthermore, as Meta said, it isn't unreasonable to wonder whether Wainwright would have ever reached his current echelon without the intervening tutelage of Dave Duncan.

That's what the biggest killer was to the Braves. Keeping that stupid streak alive.

The streak was damn awesome, and – as Braves fan – I am still proud of it.

[weso1]

I think Bill was right about the stathead movement. I also think Nate Silver was wrong about the election.

[thethe]

That's literally the point of each and every season.



There was no reason to suspect, at the time, that Wainwright was destined for such greatness; he posted good, but not phenomenal, minor-league numbers with very good, but not phenomenal, stuff. Furthermore, as Meta said, it isn't unreasonable to wonder whether Wainwright would have ever reached his current echelon without the intervening tutelage of Dave Duncan.



The streak was damn awesome, and – as Braves fan – I am still proud of it.

Making hte playoffs with a legitimate chance to win is the point. While the playoffs are a crapshoot the Braves were the product of a division that was horrible for years. Striving to make hte playoffs each year set the franchise back IMO.

Many pitchers have excelled under Roger McDowell and I suspect the same would have happened for Wainwright.

[zitothebrave]

From 1991-2005 8 out of 14 NL representatives in the World Series were from the same division as the BRaves, in 93 the year the Phillies (future divisionmates) bested the Braves, bu tthe 93 Braves had 104 wins topping the Giants with 103 wins. Of course the 2 teams were far and away the best records in baseball, where the Braves had 9 more wins in the regular season than champion bluejays.

[jpx7]

Making hte playoffs with a legitimate chance to win is the point. While the playoffs are a crapshoot the Braves were the product of a division that was horrible for years. Striving to make hte playoffs each year set the franchise back IMO.

The Braves had a legitimate chance to win the World Series in 2004, and JD Drew was a big reason why.

[zitothebrave]

The Braves had a legitimate chance to win the World Series in 2004, and JD Drew was a big reason why.

Yup, infact I'd venture if the Astros didn't have Beltran the Braves would have comfortably won that series.

[nsacpi]

To me the regular season is a more legitimate test of a team's quality. Post-season success is great for the adrenaline rush and all that, but it IS a crapshoot. Remember the 2006 Cardinals. If they could win the WS, then any team getting into the playoffs has a chance.

Almost every season we see how much luck is involved in the post-season. Giants last season with miraculous series wins against the Reds and Cardinals. Then the mystifying sweep against the Tigers.

[BRule]

Marquis is easily replaceable.....Wainwright, not so much.

[TURBO]

Waino hurts, Although he was a douche last year.