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Thread: MLB optimistic about starting season in late June

  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enscheff View Post
    The owners' position is that they will lose more money every game played with no fans in attendance if they pay the players a prorated salary than if they simply don't play any games. If this is true, then no, it doesn't make sense to grab more negative cash.

    I'm going to assume Scherzer is right, and the owners are not being truthful about how much they stand to lose/gain in each scenario. This explains why the owners won't be transparent with these accounting numbers. So again, it's a scenario where the billionaires are being greedy scum, and labor isn't going to allow it.

    There is a real risk now that this doesn't settle because the owners gave the players false revenue information, and they won't be willing to admit to that fact by settling with the union.
    How do you know the revenue information is "false"? Couldn't that make it fraud?

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    Quote Originally Posted by msstate7 View Post
    How do you know the revenue information is "false"? Couldn't that make it fraud?
    It's only "fraud" if it were information they were required by law to provide.

    Just a guess, but I'd expect the owners to open their books up for viewing the day AFTER Trump provides anyone a copy of his tax returns.
    Has there EVER been a statement and question a certain someone should absolutely never have made and asked publicly more than...

    Kinda pathetic to see yourself as a message board knight in shining armor. How impotent does someone have to be in real life to resort to playing hero on a message board?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bravesfanforlife88 View Post
    They could sell the various seating sections around the field for temporary advertisements.

    Then with tv viewership up, they could also charge more for advertising.
    I think viewership would be through the roof and creative franchises could find a way to generate additional revenue because of the increased viewership. I don't know how advertising budgets will fare in many major corporations, but my guess is Home Depot and Lowe's are in the position to buy a boatload of ads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by clvclv View Post
    It's only "fraud" if it were information they were required by law to provide.

    Just a guess, but I'd expect the owners to open their books up for viewing the day AFTER Trump provides anyone a copy of his tax returns.
    When negotiating a contract you can't knowingly provide false information. If you do you open yourself up to getting sued for civil fraud. So I doubt anything provided to the players was false. That doesn't mean it wasn't heavily, heavily slanted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by striker42 View Post
    When negotiating a contract you can't knowingly provide false information. If you do you open yourself up to getting sued for civil fraud. So I doubt anything provided to the players was false. That doesn't mean it wasn't heavily, heavily slanted.
    There's no contract negotiation going on here. The owners made an offer - the players will either accept or reject it. They're more than welcome to make a counter proposal, but there's no law requiring the owners to provide anyone access to their financial records. Maybe congress gets involved and one day and threatens the anti-trust exemption to get a look at those books, but there's not much of a chance that happens.

    The players have never had - and likely never will have - access to ownership's books.
    Has there EVER been a statement and question a certain someone should absolutely never have made and asked publicly more than...

    Kinda pathetic to see yourself as a message board knight in shining armor. How impotent does someone have to be in real life to resort to playing hero on a message board?

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    Quote Originally Posted by clvclv View Post
    There's no contract negotiation going on here. The owners made an offer - the players will either accept or reject it. They're more than welcome to make a counter proposal, but there's no law requiring the owners to provide anyone access to their financial records. Maybe congress gets involved and one day and threatens the anti-trust exemption to get a look at those books, but there's not much of a chance that happens.

    The players have never had - and likely never will have - access to ownership's books.
    This is absolutely a contract negotiation. All a contract is is an offer, acceptance, and consideration (something of value). When making any contract you can't intentionally provide false information for the other side to rely upon. Whether or not there's a law requiring you to provide the information is irrelevant.

    The owners have absolutely no obligation to provide the players with any financial data of any kind. However, if the players want financial data and the owners do provide it, they can't provide false data. If they do and get caught then the players could sue them.

    Who knows what the owners have told the players about their finances or what documents they've given them. Again, they have no obligation to give the players any financial data. They just can't give them false data if they do decide to give it.

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  9. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by msstate7 View Post
    How do you know the revenue information is "false"? Couldn't that make it fraud?
    Cause Max said so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by striker42 View Post
    When negotiating a contract you can't knowingly provide false information. If you do you open yourself up to getting sued for civil fraud. So I doubt anything provided to the players was false. That doesn't mean it wasn't heavily, heavily slanted.
    This might be worse than the sudden rise of internet experts on epidemiology.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MadduxFanII View Post
    I shall never forget the Marcell Ozuna Era in Braves history.
    Will be interesting to see if the contracts roll over to next season or they count and if thatís the case to see what moves we make to fill the roster next season.
    I really worry without baseball this year that it will never be the same and take a major hit in interest from the fans.
    Throw in the fact that basketball and football will be played this year and the gap will widen even further.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzzworm View Post
    Will be interesting to see if the contracts roll over to next season or they count and if that’s the case to see what moves we make to fill the roster next season.
    I really worry without baseball this year that it will never be the same and take a major hit in interest from the fans.
    Throw in the fact that basketball and football will be played this year and the gap will widen even further.
    Baseball was already losing with the younger generation. This will be worse than 94. Expect even more juiced baseballs in 2021.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Southcack77 View Post
    This might be worse than the sudden rise of internet experts on epidemiology.
    Dude, I'm an attorney in real life.

    Here are the elements of fraud.

    (1) a representation of fact; (2) its falsity; (3) its materiality; (4) the representerís knowledge of its falsity or ignorance of its truth; (5) the representerís intent that it should be acted upon by the person in the manner reasonably contemplated; (6) the injured partyís ignorance of its falsity; (7) the injured partyís reliance on its truth; (8) the injured partyís right to rely thereon; and (9) the injured partyís consequent and proximate injury.

    If MLB provided false financial data to the players they hit every element.

    In this fact pattern:

    Baseball is representing facts.
    Those facts are false.
    The facts are material (players asking about them can make them material).
    Baseball knows they're false.
    Baseball is intending the players to rely on these facts in their decision making.
    Players have no way of knowing if the data is correct.
    The players have a right to rely on Baseball's representation of the facts.
    The players would be injured by accepting a worse deal under the belief Baseball can't do better.

    MLB isn't stupid enough to provide false data. Data with a spin? Sure, but not false data.

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    There are financial disclosure components to the CBA, and assuming the owners have met them they're under no obligation to provide any more data, no matter how much the players might want it.

    But the problem is, the owners are going to the players and the public and saying, "If we play games in empty stadiums without slashing player salaries beyond what we've already agreed to, the game of baseball will die. America's pastime will perish, and marauders will spit on its grave. Every franchise will go out of business and every owner will be reduced to a Dickensian street urchin, pathetically pressing his nose against the glass of a fancy restaurant in hopes of catching sight of delicious, delicious food. The demon god Baphomet will ascend from his fiery chambers and lay waste the cities of man. The Crimson King shall climb to the top of the Dark Tower, and the unspeakable beings that live in the dark spaces between worlds will pour out and consume our own."

    And the players are saying, "Uh, prove it."

    And if the owners aren't willing to actually show the numbers, it's pretty reasonable to be skeptical of their claims.
    Last edited by MadduxFanII; 05-28-2020 at 09:15 PM.

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    So who's getting in shape in case they need replacement players?

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    I'm holding on to my MLBPA eligibility instead

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    Quote Originally Posted by striker42 View Post
    Dude, I'm an attorney in real life.

    Here are the elements of fraud.

    (1) a representation of fact; (2) its falsity; (3) its materiality; (4) the representerís knowledge of its falsity or ignorance of its truth; (5) the representerís intent that it should be acted upon by the person in the manner reasonably contemplated; (6) the injured partyís ignorance of its falsity; (7) the injured partyís reliance on its truth; (8) the injured partyís right to rely thereon; and (9) the injured partyís consequent and proximate injury.

    If MLB provided false financial data to the players they hit every element.

    In this fact pattern:

    Baseball is representing facts.
    Those facts are false.
    The facts are material (players asking about them can make them material).
    Baseball knows they're false.
    Baseball is intending the players to rely on these facts in their decision making.
    Players have no way of knowing if the data is correct.
    The players have a right to rely on Baseball's representation of the facts.
    The players would be injured by accepting a worse deal under the belief Baseball can't do better.

    MLB isn't stupid enough to provide false data. Data with a spin? Sure, but not false data.
    You do a lot of labor and collective bargaining do you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Southcack77 View Post
    You do a lot of labor and collective bargaining do you?
    That wasn't the scenario I was commenting on. The scenario up the thread a bit was someone talking about MLB giving false financial data to the players and whether or not that could be fraud. There was some disagreement about that so I commented that yes, that would meet the definition of fraud and open MLB up to suit based on that. The CBA is a completely different animal that wasn't part of that original question.

    I have no idea what data MLB has disclosed to the players, whether it was just what they have to do under the CBA or if they've given them more in these COVID negotiations. No matter what though, they're not going to be able to give demonstrably false data to the players to try to trick them into agreeing to a lower amount. I'm confident the law would have a remedy for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by striker42 View Post
    That wasn't the scenario I was commenting on. The scenario up the thread a bit was someone talking about MLB giving false financial data to the players and whether or not that could be fraud. There was some disagreement about that so I commented that yes, that would meet the definition of fraud and open MLB up to suit based on that. The CBA is a completely different animal that wasn't part of that original question.

    I have no idea what data MLB has disclosed to the players, whether it was just what they have to do under the CBA or if they've given them more in these COVID negotiations. No matter what though, they're not going to be able to give demonstrably false data to the players to try to trick them into agreeing to a lower amount. I'm confident the law would have a remedy for that.
    i kind of doubt they've provided them with any hard data, but they may have told them things during negotiations that were hyperbolic. would that be illegal?
    "This is the end of my presidency. I'm ****ed." - Donald J. Trump, innocent and totally exonerated man, upon hearing a special counsel has been appointed to investigate him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Super View Post
    i kind of doubt they've provided them with any hard data, but they may have told them things during negotiations that were hyperbolic. would that be illegal?
    Maybe. That would probably be an issue of fact for a fact finder (judge in a bench trial or a jury in a jury trial) to decide. Basically, it would be whether you could convince a jury that it was hyperbolic enough to be considered a false statement.

    I would think if MLB provided them anything it would be selectively edited. Everything said would be true, it's just that they would only disclose information favorable to them.

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    Isn't the Braves financials public info? Since they are a public company?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sturg33 View Post
    Isn't the Braves financials public info? Since they are a public company?
    The greater access to the Braves financials has been a source of contention between the players and MLB. The question is how much can be generalized from it. Not every team has a massive mixed use development as an income generating asset.

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