Frank Wren

[NinersSBChamps]

I am not saying anything of my opinion here. So before people jump all over me...

If the Braves fail to win in the post season, assuming they make it again. Should Frank Wren be fired?

[nsacpi]

It is a matter of joint responsibility. So I would favor the guillotine for the entire organization. The model on the right is more modern and will accomplish the task more quickly.

[NinersSBChamps]

Now I know Frank has been handcuffed with the payroll he's been able to use, but that is not an excuse.

Players like Dan Uggla, BJ Upton, Kenshin Kawakami, and Derek Lowe. Also we can't forget some of the bad trades he's made since he took over.

[The Chosen One]

Don't think you can blame Wren for Uggla and Upton being worthless and having historic baseball seasons that aren't that good.

[weso1]

I just don't see how you can even consider firing Wren. Sure he's made some crappy decisions, but what GM doesn't blow it at times? The bottom line is that not only are we one of the winningest teams over the last several years, we're also one of the youngest teams. We are also now a middle of the road payroll team.

If you just compare payroll vs performance we've got to be one of the top 6 organizations in baseball over the past several years.

- Tampa
- Oakland
- St. Louis
- Atlanta
- Boston
- San Fran

We're in pretty good company.

[cajunrevenge]

I know Wren has had some bad signings but he has made out like a bandit in most of his trades.

Arodys Vizcaino for Paul Maholm - I really liked Vizcaino as a prospect but he has yet to throw a pitch since the trade and Maholm was pretty good for his first year with the Braves before collapsing in the second half of 2013.

Tommy Hanson for Jordan Walden - Walden could be a closer for a lot of teams. Hanson was and still is toast.

Vazquez for Lillibridge/Flowers/Gilmore/Santos Rodriguez - pretty much the definition of getting something for nothing.

Upton/Johnson for Prado/Ahmed/Delgado/Spruill/Drury - This is the type of trade proposal that I would expect from Murph. I know some people have man crushes on Prado but this trade is widely seen as a big win for Wren and the Braves.

Jurrjens/Gorkys for Renteria - This is the kind of trade that good GM's make. At the time the Braves desperately need mid rotation starters. This deal was made the day after the WS ended and most fans thought Wren should have waited to try and get a better return. Fans wanted a proven starter with the big name but Wren filled the hole with a rookie and he was excellent. Even got Gorkys who was future trade bait.

Bourn for Schafer/Oberholtzer/Clemens/Abreu - This trade is close to being another something for nothing trade. Oberholtzer might give some value as a back end of the rotation starter which is atleast worth something. We also got a draft pick for letting Bourn walk and turned that into Hursh which makes this even more lopsided.

All you can ask of a GM is to put together a team that makes the playoffs. Beyond that it requires luck. There is no perfect formula for winning the in the playoffs. Everyone thought the Dodgers were unbeatable in the playoffs because of their dual aces Kershaw/Greinke and they didnt even make the world series. If you put this kind of pressure on a GM they are going to make bad trades that haunt the team for years like the Teixeira trade. JS just wanted to win one more time and didnt give a **** about the future. Maybe if Wren thinks his jobs on the line trades the farm for Price or Samardzjia and we still lose in the playoffs then we watch them leave in FA with no prospects to replace them and under performing in the playoffs is no longer relevant because we wont even get the chance.

[NinersSBChamps]

Don't think you can blame Wren for Uggla and Upton being worthless and having historic baseball seasons that aren't that good.

You can easily blame him for handing out those absurd contracts to guys who never did anything remotely close to deserving them.

[NinersSBChamps]

I just don't see how you can even consider firing Wren. Sure he's made some crappy decisions, but what GM doesn't blow it at times? The bottom line is that not only are we one of the winningest teams over the last several years, we're also one of the youngest teams. We are also now a middle of the road payroll team.

If you just compare payroll vs performance we've got to be one of the top 6 organizations in baseball over the past several years.

- Tampa
- Oakland
- St. Louis
- Atlanta
- Boston
- San Fran

We're in pretty good company.

Except all these teams have advanced in the playoffs except...

[Krgrecw]

Wrens fine, you blame the manager.

It's the managers job to get the best out of his players and to put the best team on the field.

[NinersSBChamps]

Wrens fine, you blame the manager.

It's the managers job to get the best out of his players and to put the best team on the field.

As much as I dislike Fredi, he can only work with the players the general manager allows him to. That being said they both are below average at their jobs.

[thewupk]

You can easily blame him for handing out those absurd contracts to guys who never did anything remotely close to deserving them.

The 3 years prior to Uggla coming to Atlanta he had a 855 OPS and averaged 32 homers a year. That's not worth what he's currently getting paid?

[NinersSBChamps]

The 3 years prior to Uggla coming to Atlanta he had a 855 OPS and averaged 32 homers a year. That's not worth what he's currently getting paid?

Let's talk about what he's done since getting his current contract.

[50PoundHead]

The 3 years prior to Uggla coming to Atlanta he had a 855 OPS and averaged 32 homers a year. That's not worth what he's currently getting paid?

He was 31 when the Braves got him and I thought the team wouldn't get value out of the contract they signed him to. He's not an athletic guy and those guys can fall off quickly. He's been < .800 OPS since we got him. Is that worth $13 million per year?

[Perfect Cell]

wren has been pretty good on the trade front and pretty bad on the FA front.
Derek Lowe/BJ Upton/Dan Uggla ect so hes ok with me, id rather he focus on the trade front I guess.

[thewupk]

He was 31 when the Braves got him and I thought the team wouldn't get value out of the contract they signed him to. He's not an athletic guy and those guys can fall off quickly. He's been < .800 OPS since we got him. Is that worth $13 million per year?

No he hasn't been. But that's not what I was replying to either now was it. Niners said Uggla never did anything remotely close to deserving the contract he got. I call bull****. His years with the Marlins are very deserving of 13 million a year.

[thewupk]

Let's talk about what he's done since getting his current contract.

Lets talk about what you actually said. Were his years with the Marlins worth anything close to 13 million a year.

[NinersSBChamps]

Uggla has always been a feast or famine player with bad defense. This is nothing new. The fact that Wren thought he would change over night is laughable.

[thewupk]

Uggla has always been a feast or famine player with bad defense. This is nothing new. The fact that Wren thought he would change over night is laughable.

Why would he want him to change? Is an 855 OPS and 32 homers a year worth 13 million a year?

[zitothebrave]

Has nothing to do with change. Uggla was for 4-5 years a top 3 2b and well worth the money.

[nsacpi]

He was 31 when the Braves got him and I thought the team wouldn't get value out of the contract they signed him to. He's not an athletic guy and those guys can fall off quickly. He's been < .800 OPS since we got him. Is that worth $13 million per year?

There are a couple rough rules of thumb for predicting how players will age.

1) Athleticism, which can mainly be judged by defense and base running. The more athletic guys age better.

2) Late arrivers to the majors also tend to age more quickly.

These two rules are not 100% accurate, but they have validity. Both were red flags with respect to Uggla.

Interestingly, these same indicators suggested BJ was not at risk for a rapid decline. We overpaid for BJ, but at the time the issue seemed more one of dollars than years. With Uggla it seemed apparent at the time of the extension that the main risk was the length of the extension.

I will say that I think Wren took risks with Uggla and BJ in areas where there was a gap in what the farm system was providing. At the time of the Uggla trade and extension we had a need for a right-handed power hitter and a left fieldier. Uggla filled both, though indirectly with Prado moving to left. Also the off-season Wren signed BJ there was a clear need for a center fielder. There was discussion about the pros and cons of Bourn, BJ, Victorino, Hamilton and Pagan. All those guys carried risk. So far Victorino has been the one that looks good. But that's with hindsight. I don't recall a big pro-Victorino contingent on the old board that off-season. My recollection is that the BJ signing was generally met with enthusiasm, though some of us thought the price was a bit high. But then the price is usually high when you dabble in the FA market.

It is worth noting that the poster who started this thread (unless I have him confused with someone else) advocated either Ellsbury or Sizemore as acquisitions this off-season as solutions to our problems in center. I look forward to seeing how that works out.