Gattis Traded To Astros (pg. 13)

What about Gattis, Elmer Reyes (or) Tyler Pastornicky, and Juan Jamie (or) James Russell to Baltimore for Hunter Harvey and Jimmy Paredes
 
thethe said:
I'd love to see how accurate the steamer projections were last year. These predictive tools are close to useless ofr young players who haven't logged significant major league innings.
Click to expand...

I'm with you on this [MENTION=7]thethe[/MENTION] so I found some interesting numbers:

Final 2014 Stats / along with 2014 Steamer Projections in ():

Final stats (Steamer projections)

Julio Teheran- Wins: 14 (11.8) -- Losses: 13 (11.3) -- Innings Pitched: 221.0 (192.0) -- ERA: 2.89 (3.81) -- SIERA: 3.68 (3.99) -- WHIP: 1.08 (1.27)

Alex Wood- Wins: 11 (13.1) -- Losses: 11 (10.8) -- Games: 35 (44.9) -- Games Started: 24 (29.9) -- Innings Pitched: 171.2 (197.0) -- ERA: 2.78 (3.51) -- SIERA: 3.16 (3.73) -- WHIP: 1.14 (1.27)

Just for comparison (just randomly selected names):

Clayton Kershaw- Wins: 21 (13.6) -- Losses: 3 (9.3) -- Innings Pitched: 198.1 (180.0) -- ERA: 1.77 (2.91) -- SIERA: 2.09 (3.23) -- WHIP: 0.86 (1.11)

Corey Kluber- Wins: 18 (10.7) -- Losses: 9 (10.4) -- Innings Pitched: 235.2 (173.0) -- ERA: 2.44 (4.09) -- SIERA: 2.61 (3.94) -- WHIP: 1.09 (1.30)

Felix Hernandez- Wins: 15 (14.0) -- Losses: 6 (9.1) -- Innings Pitched: 236.0 (192.0) -- ERA: 2.14 (3.26) -- SIERA: 2.50 (3.26) -- WHIP: 0.92 (1.15)

Henderson Alvarez- Wins: 12 (9.3) -- Losses: 7 (11.5) -- Innings Pitched: 187.0 (163.0) -- ERA: 2.65 (4.07) -- SIERA: 3.70 (4.06) -- WHIP: 1.24 (1.36)

Max Scherzer- Wins: 18 (14.3) -- Losses: 5 (9.2) -- Innings Pitched: 220.1 (192.0) -- ERA: 3.15 (3.29) -- SIERA: 2.98 (3.33) -- WHIP: 1.18 (1.15)

Zack Greinke- Wins: 17 (12.7) -- Losses: 8 (10.1) -- Innings Pitched: 202.1 (189.0) -- ERA: 2.71 (3.38) -- SIERA: 2.87 (3.59) -- WHIP: 1.15 (1.19)

Ervin Santana- Wins: 14 (11.4) -- Losses: 10 (11.4) -- Innings Pitched: 196.0 (182.0) -- ERA: 3.95 (3.94) -- SIERA: 3.63 (3.83) -- WHIP: 1.31 (1.27)

Tim Hudson- Wins: 9 (10.0) -- Losses: 13 (10.8) -- Innings Pitched: 189.1 (163.0) -- ERA: 3.57 (4.06) -- SIERA: 3.66 (4.04) -- WHIP: 1.23 (1.34)

Stephen Strasburg- Wins: 14 (12.9) -- Losses: 11 (9.1) -- Innings Pitched: 215.0 (182.0) -- ERA: 3.14 (3.24) -- SIERA: 2.64 (3.17) -- WHIP: 1.12 (1.15)

Jordan Zimmerman- Wins: 14 (12.0) -- Losses: 5 (10.8) -- Innings Pitched: 199.2 (182.0) -- ERA: 2.66 (3.81) -- SIERA: 3.15 (3.85) -- WHIP: 1.07 (1.23)

Jon Lester- Wins: 16 (12.7) -- Losses: 11 (10.5) -- Innings Pitched: 219.2 (192.0) -- ERA: 2.46 (4.00) -- SIERA: 3.09 (4.04) -- WHIP: 1.10 (1.32)

Chris Sale- Wins: 12 (13.1) -- Losses: 4 (10.0) -- Innings Pitched: 174.0 (192.0) -- ERA: 2.17 (3.43) -- SIERA: 2.56 (3.27) -- WHIP: 0.97 (1.17)

Jared Weaver- Wins: 18 (12.1) -- Losses: 9 (11.0) -- Innings Pitched: 213.1 (192.0) -- ERA: 3.59 (4.12) -- SIERA: 4.18 (4.29) -- WHIP: 1.21 (1.27)

Sonny Gray- Wins: 14 (10.6) -- Losses: 10 (10.2) -- Innings Pitched: 219.0 (173.0) -- ERA: 3.08 (4.14) -- SIERA: 3.56 (4.26) -- WHIP: 1.31 (1.36)

Jacob deGrom- Wins: 9 (0.5) -- Losses: 6 (0.4) -- Innings Pitched: 140.1 (10.0) -- ERA: 2.69 (3.85) -- SIERA: 3.19 (3.84) -- WHIP: 1.14 (1.27)

Cole Hamels- Wins: 9 (9.1) -- Losses: 9 (9.2) -- Innings Pitched: 204.2 (144.0) -- ERA: 2.46 (3.54) -- SIERA: 3.29 (3.54) -- WHIP: 1.15 (1.17)

James Shields- Wins: 14 (13.0) -- Losses: 8 (10.2) -- Innings Pitched: 227.0 (192.0) -- ERA: 3.21 (3.71) -- SIERA: 3.59 (3.86) -- WHIP: 1.18 (1.24)

Phil Hughes- Wins: 16 (9.4) -- Losses: 10 (11.0) -- Innings Pitched: 209.2 (163.0) -- ERA: 3.52 (4.34) -- SIERA: 3.17 (4.29) -- WHIP: 1.13 (1.32)

Scott Feldman- Wins: 8 (9.3) -- Losses: 12 (11.6) -- Innings Pitched: 180.1 (173.0) -- ERA: 3.74 (4.51) -- SIERA: 4.33 (4.26) -- WHIP: 1.30 (1.36)

Yu Darvish- Wins: 10 (12.7) -- Losses: 7 (8.0) -- Innings Pitched: 144.1 (163.0) -- ERA: 3.25 (3.28) -- SIERA: 2.87 (3.20) -- WHIP: 1.26 (1.18)

Madison Bumgarner- Wins: 18 (13.2) -- Losses: 10 (10.4) -- Innings Pitched: 217.1 (192.0) -- ERA: 2.98 (3.25) -- SIERA: 2.98 (3.45) -- WHIP: 1.09 (1.18)

It's pretty obvious that these "projections" are almost always higher than the actual numbers.
 
blueagleace1 said:
I'm with you on this [MENTION=7]thethe[/MENTION] so I found some interesting numbers:

Final 2014 Stats / along with 2014 Steamer Projections in ():

Final stats (Steamer projections)

Julio Teheran- Wins: 14 (11.8) -- Losses: 13 (11.3) -- Innings Pitched: 221.0 (192.0) -- ERA: 2.89 (3.81) -- SIERA: 3.68 (3.99) -- WHIP: 1.08 (1.27)

Alex Wood- Wins: 11 (13.1) -- Losses: 11 (10.8) -- Games: 35 (44.9) -- Games Started: 24 (29.9) -- Innings Pitched: 171.2 (197.0) -- ERA: 2.78 (3.51) -- SIERA: 3.16 (3.73) -- WHIP: 1.14 (1.27)

Just for comparison (just randomly selected names):

Clayton Kershaw- Wins: 21 (13.6) -- Losses: 3 (9.3) -- Innings Pitched: 198.1 (180.0) -- ERA: 1.77 (2.91) -- SIERA: 2.09 (3.23) -- WHIP: 0.86 (1.11)

Corey Kluber- Wins: 18 (10.7) -- Losses: 9 (10.4) -- Innings Pitched: 235.2 (173.0) -- ERA: 2.44 (4.09) -- SIERA: 2.61 (3.94) -- WHIP: 1.09 (1.30)

Felix Hernandez- Wins: 15 (14.0) -- Losses: 6 (9.1) -- Innings Pitched: 236.0 (192.0) -- ERA: 2.14 (3.26) -- SIERA: 2.50 (3.26) -- WHIP: 0.92 (1.15)

Henderson Alvarez- Wins: 12 (9.3) -- Losses: 7 (11.5) -- Innings Pitched: 187.0 (163.0) -- ERA: 2.65 (4.07) -- SIERA: 3.70 (4.06) -- WHIP: 1.24 (1.36)

Max Scherzer- Wins: 18 (14.3) -- Losses: 5 (9.2) -- Innings Pitched: 220.1 (192.0) -- ERA: 3.15 (3.29) -- SIERA: 2.98 (3.33) -- WHIP: 1.18 (1.15)

Zack Greinke- Wins: 17 (12.7) -- Losses: 8 (10.1) -- Innings Pitched: 202.1 (189.0) -- ERA: 2.71 (3.38) -- SIERA: 2.87 (3.59) -- WHIP: 1.15 (1.19)

Ervin Santana- Wins: 14 (11.4) -- Losses: 10 (11.4) -- Innings Pitched: 196.0 (182.0) -- ERA: 3.95 (3.94) -- SIERA: 3.63 (3.83) -- WHIP: 1.31 (1.27)

Tim Hudson- Wins: 9 (10.0) -- Losses: 13 (10.8) -- Innings Pitched: 189.1 (163.0) -- ERA: 3.57 (4.06) -- SIERA: 3.66 (4.04) -- WHIP: 1.23 (1.34)

Stephen Strasburg- Wins: 14 (12.9) -- Losses: 11 (9.1) -- Innings Pitched: 215.0 (182.0) -- ERA: 3.14 (3.24) -- SIERA: 2.64 (3.17) -- WHIP: 1.12 (1.15)

Jordan Zimmerman- Wins: 14 (12.0) -- Losses: 5 (10.8) -- Innings Pitched: 199.2 (182.0) -- ERA: 2.66 (3.81) -- SIERA: 3.15 (3.85) -- WHIP: 1.07 (1.23)

Jon Lester- Wins: 16 (12.7) -- Losses: 11 (10.5) -- Innings Pitched: 219.2 (192.0) -- ERA: 2.46 (4.00) -- SIERA: 3.09 (4.04) -- WHIP: 1.10 (1.32)

Chris Sale- Wins: 12 (13.1) -- Losses: 4 (10.0) -- Innings Pitched: 174.0 (192.0) -- ERA: 2.17 (3.43) -- SIERA: 2.56 (3.27) -- WHIP: 0.97 (1.17)

Jared Weaver- Wins: 18 (12.1) -- Losses: 9 (11.0) -- Innings Pitched: 213.1 (192.0) -- ERA: 3.59 (4.12) -- SIERA: 4.18 (4.29) -- WHIP: 1.21 (1.27)

Sonny Gray- Wins: 14 (10.6) -- Losses: 10 (10.2) -- Innings Pitched: 219.0 (173.0) -- ERA: 3.08 (4.14) -- SIERA: 3.56 (4.26) -- WHIP: 1.31 (1.36)

Jacob deGrom- Wins: 9 (0.5) -- Losses: 6 (0.4) -- Innings Pitched: 140.1 (10.0) -- ERA: 2.69 (3.85) -- SIERA: 3.19 (3.84) -- WHIP: 1.14 (1.27)

Cole Hamels- Wins: 9 (9.1) -- Losses: 9 (9.2) -- Innings Pitched: 204.2 (144.0) -- ERA: 2.46 (3.54) -- SIERA: 3.29 (3.54) -- WHIP: 1.15 (1.17)

James Shields- Wins: 14 (13.0) -- Losses: 8 (10.2) -- Innings Pitched: 227.0 (192.0) -- ERA: 3.21 (3.71) -- SIERA: 3.59 (3.86) -- WHIP: 1.18 (1.24)

Phil Hughes- Wins: 16 (9.4) -- Losses: 10 (11.0) -- Innings Pitched: 209.2 (163.0) -- ERA: 3.52 (4.34) -- SIERA: 3.17 (4.29) -- WHIP: 1.13 (1.32)

Scott Feldman- Wins: 8 (9.3) -- Losses: 12 (11.6) -- Innings Pitched: 180.1 (173.0) -- ERA: 3.74 (4.51) -- SIERA: 4.33 (4.26) -- WHIP: 1.30 (1.36)

Yu Darvish- Wins: 10 (12.7) -- Losses: 7 (8.0) -- Innings Pitched: 144.1 (163.0) -- ERA: 3.25 (3.28) -- SIERA: 2.87 (3.20) -- WHIP: 1.26 (1.18)

Madison Bumgarner- Wins: 18 (13.2) -- Losses: 10 (10.4) -- Innings Pitched: 217.1 (192.0) -- ERA: 2.98 (3.25) -- SIERA: 2.98 (3.45) -- WHIP: 1.09 (1.18)

It's pretty obvious that these "projections" are almost always higher than the actual numbers.
Click to expand...

It looks like the prediction system hasn't quite caught up to the reduction in offense throughout the game yet.
 
Thanks for posting that compare. Very interesting to see some of the differences. I think it's a good reminder that we shouldn't over-conclude anything based on small differences in statistical projections. For example, it would be unwise to put a lot of stock into someone saying . . . "player A is SO much better than player B because Steamer projects 1.2 WAR for player A and 1.6 WAR for player B".

I wouldn't say that the projections are always higher than the actual numbers though. Not sure where that's coming from.

Not to beat a dead horse with this, but projection systems are the best tools we have to predict future outcomes in an objective way. They continue to get better, but will never get to the point of being a crystal ball.
 
If you chose Michael Brantley, Victor Martinez, Jose Abreu, and Nelso Cruz, you could conclude "well it looks like the projection systems haven't caught up to the inflation of offense". Which, of course, is a wrong conclusion but the exact same method the poster used earlier. Even though he was trying to pick random, it's a biased method of choosing players.

Projection systems are using what is called the mean projection or a 50th percentile projection. It's the likeliest outcome of any, but not by much. It's not saying its unlikely for a player to outperform or underperform either.

And as for offensive or defensive inflated statistics, steamer forecasts league adjusted statistics, so they do account for inflation inherently.
 
chop2chip said:
This is wrong. The weights aren't just arbitrarily chosen. They are obtained in a sophisticated way, likely through regression analysis which is very precise and based off thousands of data samples.

The biggest issue with projection systems is they are excellent at predicting the majority of players since the majority tend to play to their averages, but struggle predicting which players will drastically outperform or underperform their averages.

The issue that projection systems have with Julio Teheran is that his underlying stats suggest that he's been overperforming (FIP) so Steamer is predicting that he's going to regress back to what his peripherals suggest.

Steamer isn't being unfair to Julio. It's a model so it's lacks the ability to be bias. If Julio continues to outperform his peripherals then the system will start to incorporate that more and more.
Click to expand...

And there are going to continue to be pitchers that are outliers, but not many. Many of them are groundball pitchers that play in front of good defense or things like that.

Carp has zero understanding of statistics.
 
blueagleace1 said:
I'm with you on this [MENTION=7]thethe[/MENTION] so I found some interesting numbers:

Final 2014 Stats / along with 2014 Steamer Projections in ():

Final stats (Steamer projections)

Julio Teheran- Wins: 14 (11.8) -- Losses: 13 (11.3) -- Innings Pitched: 221.0 (192.0) -- ERA: 2.89 (3.81) -- SIERA: 3.68 (3.99) -- WHIP: 1.08 (1.27)

Alex Wood- Wins: 11 (13.1) -- Losses: 11 (10.8) -- Games: 35 (44.9) -- Games Started: 24 (29.9) -- Innings Pitched: 171.2 (197.0) -- ERA: 2.78 (3.51) -- SIERA: 3.16 (3.73) -- WHIP: 1.14 (1.27)

Just for comparison (just randomly selected names):

Clayton Kershaw- Wins: 21 (13.6) -- Losses: 3 (9.3) -- Innings Pitched: 198.1 (180.0) -- ERA: 1.77 (2.91) -- SIERA: 2.09 (3.23) -- WHIP: 0.86 (1.11)

Corey Kluber- Wins: 18 (10.7) -- Losses: 9 (10.4) -- Innings Pitched: 235.2 (173.0) -- ERA: 2.44 (4.09) -- SIERA: 2.61 (3.94) -- WHIP: 1.09 (1.30)

Felix Hernandez- Wins: 15 (14.0) -- Losses: 6 (9.1) -- Innings Pitched: 236.0 (192.0) -- ERA: 2.14 (3.26) -- SIERA: 2.50 (3.26) -- WHIP: 0.92 (1.15)

Henderson Alvarez- Wins: 12 (9.3) -- Losses: 7 (11.5) -- Innings Pitched: 187.0 (163.0) -- ERA: 2.65 (4.07) -- SIERA: 3.70 (4.06) -- WHIP: 1.24 (1.36)

Max Scherzer- Wins: 18 (14.3) -- Losses: 5 (9.2) -- Innings Pitched: 220.1 (192.0) -- ERA: 3.15 (3.29) -- SIERA: 2.98 (3.33) -- WHIP: 1.18 (1.15)

Zack Greinke- Wins: 17 (12.7) -- Losses: 8 (10.1) -- Innings Pitched: 202.1 (189.0) -- ERA: 2.71 (3.38) -- SIERA: 2.87 (3.59) -- WHIP: 1.15 (1.19)

Ervin Santana- Wins: 14 (11.4) -- Losses: 10 (11.4) -- Innings Pitched: 196.0 (182.0) -- ERA: 3.95 (3.94) -- SIERA: 3.63 (3.83) -- WHIP: 1.31 (1.27)

Tim Hudson- Wins: 9 (10.0) -- Losses: 13 (10.8) -- Innings Pitched: 189.1 (163.0) -- ERA: 3.57 (4.06) -- SIERA: 3.66 (4.04) -- WHIP: 1.23 (1.34)

Stephen Strasburg- Wins: 14 (12.9) -- Losses: 11 (9.1) -- Innings Pitched: 215.0 (182.0) -- ERA: 3.14 (3.24) -- SIERA: 2.64 (3.17) -- WHIP: 1.12 (1.15)

Jordan Zimmerman- Wins: 14 (12.0) -- Losses: 5 (10.8) -- Innings Pitched: 199.2 (182.0) -- ERA: 2.66 (3.81) -- SIERA: 3.15 (3.85) -- WHIP: 1.07 (1.23)

Jon Lester- Wins: 16 (12.7) -- Losses: 11 (10.5) -- Innings Pitched: 219.2 (192.0) -- ERA: 2.46 (4.00) -- SIERA: 3.09 (4.04) -- WHIP: 1.10 (1.32)

Chris Sale- Wins: 12 (13.1) -- Losses: 4 (10.0) -- Innings Pitched: 174.0 (192.0) -- ERA: 2.17 (3.43) -- SIERA: 2.56 (3.27) -- WHIP: 0.97 (1.17)

Jared Weaver- Wins: 18 (12.1) -- Losses: 9 (11.0) -- Innings Pitched: 213.1 (192.0) -- ERA: 3.59 (4.12) -- SIERA: 4.18 (4.29) -- WHIP: 1.21 (1.27)

Sonny Gray- Wins: 14 (10.6) -- Losses: 10 (10.2) -- Innings Pitched: 219.0 (173.0) -- ERA: 3.08 (4.14) -- SIERA: 3.56 (4.26) -- WHIP: 1.31 (1.36)

Jacob deGrom- Wins: 9 (0.5) -- Losses: 6 (0.4) -- Innings Pitched: 140.1 (10.0) -- ERA: 2.69 (3.85) -- SIERA: 3.19 (3.84) -- WHIP: 1.14 (1.27)

Cole Hamels- Wins: 9 (9.1) -- Losses: 9 (9.2) -- Innings Pitched: 204.2 (144.0) -- ERA: 2.46 (3.54) -- SIERA: 3.29 (3.54) -- WHIP: 1.15 (1.17)

James Shields- Wins: 14 (13.0) -- Losses: 8 (10.2) -- Innings Pitched: 227.0 (192.0) -- ERA: 3.21 (3.71) -- SIERA: 3.59 (3.86) -- WHIP: 1.18 (1.24)

Phil Hughes- Wins: 16 (9.4) -- Losses: 10 (11.0) -- Innings Pitched: 209.2 (163.0) -- ERA: 3.52 (4.34) -- SIERA: 3.17 (4.29) -- WHIP: 1.13 (1.32)

Scott Feldman- Wins: 8 (9.3) -- Losses: 12 (11.6) -- Innings Pitched: 180.1 (173.0) -- ERA: 3.74 (4.51) -- SIERA: 4.33 (4.26) -- WHIP: 1.30 (1.36)

Yu Darvish- Wins: 10 (12.7) -- Losses: 7 (8.0) -- Innings Pitched: 144.1 (163.0) -- ERA: 3.25 (3.28) -- SIERA: 2.87 (3.20) -- WHIP: 1.26 (1.18)

Madison Bumgarner- Wins: 18 (13.2) -- Losses: 10 (10.4) -- Innings Pitched: 217.1 (192.0) -- ERA: 2.98 (3.25) -- SIERA: 2.98 (3.45) -- WHIP: 1.09 (1.18)

It's pretty obvious that these "projections" are almost always higher than the actual numbers.
Click to expand...

That's not obvious because of the article I posted earlier. The projections wouldn't be that accurate if the majority of players outpitched their projections.

And to conclude that the guys with the lowest ERA in the league outpitched their projections is pretty logical when you think about it. To have an ERA under 3 is tough (and tough to withstand) and luck plays a part in it.
 
chop2chip said:
If you chose Michael Brantley, Victor Martinez, Jose Abreu, and Nelso Cruz, you could conclude "well it looks like the projection systems haven't caught up to the inflation of offense". Which, of course, is a wrong conclusion but the exact same method the poster used earlier. Even though he was trying to pick random, it's a biased method of choosing players.

Projection systems are using what is called the mean projection or a 50th percentile projection. It's the likeliest outcome of any, but not by much. It's not saying its unlikely for a player to outperform or underperform either.

And as for offensive or defensive inflated statistics, steamer forecasts league adjusted statistics, so they do account for inflation inherently.
Click to expand...

Please tell me how this was anything but random.
 
Obviously you chose pitchers that were really good last year for the most part. Even though you "randomly" chose pitchers from the far end of the performance scale, you are choosing from a group that by and large had career years. Of course a projection system isn't going to predict someone to improve THAT much.

A projection system that's going to predict sub 2 eras from starting pitchers isn't worth jack diddly.
 
chop2chip said:
I find it highly unlikely you randomly chose Kershaw, Felix, and Kluber out of the hundreds of major league pitchers.

How did you choose them?
Click to expand...

I chose the best pitcher(s) from almost every team. My point is that as good as most of these pitchers are, and some have been for a while, "projections" still tend to be higher than they should.
 
blueagleace1 said:
I chose the best pitcher(s) from almost every team. My point is that as good as most of these pitchers are, and some have been for a while, "projections" still tend to be higher than they should.
Click to expand...

Well try the same exercise with the fifth best starting pitcher on every team and I guarantee you that you'll come away with the opposite conclusion.

A poster posted an excellent article a couple pages earlier that addresses the accuracy of projection systems. In it it discusses why projection systems have a difficult time predicting break outs and break downs. You cited examples of Steamer failing to predict break out performances. If that was point you were making then I find it to be a rather good one. But you claimed "projection" (the quotation marks an obvious slight) systems underestimate most pitchers which isn't correct. Choosing the best pitchers in the league doesn't prove your point.
 
chop2chip said:
Well try the same exercise with the fifth best starting pitcher on every team and I guarantee you that you'll come away with the opposite conclusion.

A poster posted an excellent article a couple pages earlier that addresses the accuracy of projection systems. In it it discusses why projection systems have a difficult time predicting break outs and break downs. You cited examples of Steamer failing to predict break out performances. If that was point you were making then I find it to be a rather good one. But you claimed "projection" (the quotation marks an obvious slight) systems underestimate most pitchers which isn't correct. Choosing the best pitchers in the league doesn't prove your point.
Click to expand...

So take R.A Dickey for example (who was suppose to be the Jays best pitcher) and I guarantee that his final numbers were a whole lot worse than the projections. I'm not trying to argue with you because these projections are the best we as fans have at predicting a players production but to say a Player is going to be worse than what he's continued to do at the highest level is absurd. I will later on tonight do a chart with some 5th starters just to see.
 
blueagleace1 said:
So take R.A Dickey for example (who was suppose to be the Jays best pitcher) and I guarantee that his final numbers were a whole lot worse than the projections. I'm not trying to argue with you because these projections are the best we as fans have at predicting a players production but to say a Player is going to be worse than what he's continued to do at the highest level is absurd. I will later on tonight do a chart with some 5th starters just to see.
Click to expand...

You could do that... Or you could just read that article. The latter would be far less time consuming. You would prove zero point to me by doing "some 5th starters".

If you want to prove a point then compile a list of every single pitcher in baseball and then compare the projection and actual performance. If you notice a trend of pitchers outperforming their projections then I'll take your side on it.
 
chop2chip said:
You could do that... Or you could just read that article. The latter would be far less time consuming. You would prove zero point to me by doing "some 5th starters".

If you want to prove a point then compile a list of every single pitcher in baseball and then compare the projection and actual performance. If you notice a trend of pitchers outperforming their projections then I'll take your side on it.
Click to expand...

Alrighty.
 
Bowman saying the Astros and Rangers are in the mix. There's one prospect we NEED to land and that's Nomar Mazara.
 
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