Gattis Traded To Astros (pg. 13)

thethe said:
A lot can change in one year actually:

1. Gattis proved he wasn't a long term option at catcher therefore severely minimizing his value to a NL team.

2. BJ UPton followed a historically awful season with another awful season.

3. Chris Johnson was inexplicably extended and has a terrible season

4. Mike Minor has an injury issue that questions just how reliable he will be in the future

5. No prospect emerges as a legit second base candidate

6. Essentially everyone on the farm takes a step backwards aside from Peraza/Albies

7. The 2013 draft shows itself to so far being an absolute joke

Yes, a lot can change in just one season to make the future of a once promising franchise look very bleak unless specific actions are taken.
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I think a lot of those are just excuses. Johnson isn't as bad as he was in 2014 and not as good as he was in 2015. I think any reasonable person could see that. And a platoon would fix that position instantly. La Stella did emerge as a 2b option until Peraza or other long term options emerged. BJ is crap and most epected that to cotinue.

There are those that think 2014 was just a bad season and that 2015 would have been closer to 2013. Again the farm was already bottom 10 so it was still really bad. That didn't change and wasn't really expected to.

The outlook of the team changed with a craptastic 2nd half of the year. It was so bad that it got the GM fired and the team went into total rebuilding mode. I think that is a little over dramatic. Even with the horrible farm and pending departures of Upton and Heyward. I don't think the offseason plays out as it did if the team was good in 2013. I think they go for it again. And I think that would of been the correct choice. Either way I'm sure Kimbrel and Freeman aren't happy to have signed away their prime years on a rebuilding effort after having it sold to them that this core would stay togethor and try to win.
 
thewupk said:
I think a lot of those are just excuses. Johnson isn't as bad as he was in 2014 and not as good as he was in 2015. I think any reasonable person could see that. And a platoon would fix that position instantly. La Stella did emerge as a 2b option until Peraza or other long term options emerged. BJ is crap and most epected that to cotinue.

There are those that think 2014 was just a bad season and that 2015 would have been closer to 2013. Again the farm was already bottom 10 so it was still really bad. That didn't change and wasn't really expected to.

The outlook of the team changed with a craptastic 2nd half of the year. It was so bad that it got the GM fired and the team went into total rebuilding mode. I think that is a little over dramatic. Even with the horrible farm and pending departures of Upton and Heyward. I don't think the offseason plays out as it did if the team was good in 2013. I think they go for it again. And I think that would of been the correct choice. Either way I'm sure Kimbrel and Freeman aren't happy to have signed away their prime years on a rebuilding effort after having it sold to them that this core would stay togethor and try to win.
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Some of us now believe that 2013 was the fluke and not 2014. Whose to say who is right or not? Braves are not the big boys in terms of market. They cannot fix themselves quickly. A Heyward/Upton departure in the offseason would have set this franchise back for 5+ years. They are doing the responsible thing that any person running a business would do in the same circumstances. Ensure that the long term health of the company is strong while the short term will be a difficult road to navigate. There is a clear plan and the people who are now in charge of picking/coaching the players are the same group that consistently produced excellent young players. I'm throwing my hat in with them.
 
thethe said:
Some of us now believe that 2013 was the fluke and not 2014. Whose to say who is right or not? Braves are not the big boys in terms of market. They cannot fix themselves quickly. A Heyward/Upton departure in the offseason would have set this franchise back for 5+ years. They are doing the responsible thing that any person running a business would do in the same circumstances. Ensure that the long term health of the company is strong while the short term will be a difficult road to navigate. There is a clear plan and the people who are now in charge of picking/coaching the players are the same group that consistently produced excellent young players. I'm throwing my hat in with them.
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Long term health? Set the franchise back 5 years? I have serious doubts the talent acquired in the Heyward/Justin deal is so much better than two potential first round draft picks that it would set the franchise back 5 years. IMO there are zero impact prospects. They would be roleplayers. Some people have other opinions but that is mine. Miller is a fine pitcher but we have his cheap years here while the team is in rebuilding. So it' snot like he's going to help much. The only thing for sure right now is the Braves are going to suck for foreseable future.
 
thethe said:
Some of us now believe that 2013 was the fluke and not 2014. Whose to say who is right or not? Braves are not the big boys in terms of market. They cannot fix themselves quickly. A Heyward/Upton departure in the offseason would have set this franchise back for 5+ years. They are doing the responsible thing that any person running a business would do in the same circumstances. Ensure that the long term health of the company is strong while the short term will be a difficult road to navigate. There is a clear plan and the people who are now in charge of picking/coaching the players are the same group that consistently produced excellent young players. I'm throwing my hat in with them.
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Was Frank Wren not assistant to JS during the actual era of us winning? Has John Hart won anything in ATL?
 
gilesfan said:
Who would have known that?
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Not because of his ability to defend the position (which was your argument). His overall mass just prevents him from having long term sustainability there.

You were and always will be wrong about Gattis. But thats ok.
 
Perfect Cell said:
Was Frank Wren not assistant to JS during the actual era of us winning? Has John Hart won anything in ATL?
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I am talking about Roy Clark and his staff. This organization has always let its scouting department run the show outside of the major league squad.
 
thewupk said:
Long term health? Set the franchise back 5 years? I have serious doubts the talent acquired in the Heyward/Justin deal is so much better than two potential first round draft picks that it would set the franchise back 5 years. IMO there are zero impact prospects. They would be roleplayers. Some people have other opinions but that is mine. Miller is a fine pitcher but we have his cheap years here while the team is in rebuilding. So it' snot like he's going to help much. The only thing for sure right now is the Braves are going to suck for foreseable future.
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Of course you have doubts about the talent coming back. Just like I am positive about the people in charge you are negative so we are going to see the returns in whatever light that fits how we perceive the organization is being run currently.
 
thethe said:
Of course you have doubts about the talent coming back. Just like I am positive about the people in charge you are negative so we are going to see the returns in whatever light that fits how we perceive the organization is being run currently.
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You are positive about whatever the front office is currently doing. I share concerns that many others outside the orgiznation do as well. IMO the Braves gutted a potential contender in hopes of contending in the future.

I just hope the Braves target legit hitters with their high draft picks the next few years.
 
thewupk said:
You are positive about whatever the front office is currently doing. I share concerns that many others outside the orgiznation do as well. IMO the Braves gutted a potential contender in hopes of contending in the future.

I just hope the Braves target legit hitters with their high draft picks the next few years.
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I trust what is happening now because of how they brought Roy Clark back into the fold. I doubt he ever wanted to leave but Wren was such an egotistical maniac that he forced all of the top scouting talent out of the organization and low and behold our farm system blew balls.
 
thethe said:
I trust what is happening now because of how they brought Roy Clark back into the fold. I doubt he ever wanted to leave but Wren was such an egotistical maniac that he forced all of the top scouting talent out of the organization and low and behold our farm system blew balls.
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All I will say is that farm systems aren't the end all be all. Royals have had top farm systems for years and finally had one good seaseon. Rebuilding can take a long time and it looks like that is the road the Braves are going down. Now that might be the best course of action but the 2017 notion that Hart and others have talked about is just ignorant. The team will not be ready to win by the time the new stadium opens.
 
thewupk said:
All I will say is that farm systems aren't the end all be all. Royals have had top farm systems for years and finally had one good seaseon. Rebuilding can take a long time and it looks like that is the road the Braves are going down. Now that might be the best course of action but the 2017 notion that Hart and others have talked about is just ignorant. The team will not be ready to win by the time the new stadium opens.
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The farm system was the lifeblood of the Braves in the 90's and early 2000's. The farm system is what made the Braves a potential contender as you have intimated recently.
 
thewupk said:
Not to beat a dead horse but...

I'm sure Kimbrel is pleased with this offseason too. His quotes after signing the extension last year.

"I want to stay here with a group of guys that I came up with and I'm comfortable with," Kimbrel said. "In the game of baseball, it's who you're around, it's the team you're on and the guys you're surrounded by. We have an awesome core here. I think this is a core that can win for a long time."

"I can see what we're doing as an organization and ballclub," Kimbrel said. "We're going out to win. As of right now, we're planning on winning for a long time. This is where I want to be. I want to be closing out division titles and championships and World Series. We've got the team to do it and I'm very excited."

Feels like our players that got extended were lied to. Sure they are making millions but would of made more had they gone to free agency. The concept of being a great young team that will win is a great one that would make people want to stay. Too bad that's not the case anymore.
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How is this even relevant?? The GM who signed them to their extensions isn't even apart of our organization. Those guys also knew the contract situation of Heyward and Upton when they signed their extensions.
 
thewupk said:
All I will say is that farm systems aren't the end all be all. Royals have had top farm systems for years and finally had one good seaseon. Rebuilding can take a long time and it looks like that is the road the Braves are going down. Now that might be the best course of action but the 2017 notion that Hart and others have talked about is just ignorant. The team will not be ready to win by the time the new stadium opens.
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Royals had basically zero major league talent when Moore showed up, aside from Greinke, Butler, and Gordon. So that isn't a great comparison. Braves still have a great rotation and at least 2 good hitters. Hell, I personally don't see us finishing any worse than last yr, and with a little luck, may be we could get that 2nd wild card. People are really underestimating how good our rotation is going to be this yr.

Saying you know how good this team is going to be in 2-3 yrs is what is ignorant. A lot can happen between now and then. We didn't clear a ton of payroll for nothing.
 
thethe said:
I trust what is happening now because of how they brought Roy Clark back into the fold. I doubt he ever wanted to leave but Wren was such an egotistical maniac that he forced all of the top scouting talent out of the organization and low and behold our farm system blew balls.
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Oh my God.
 
thewupk said:
I just hope the Braves target legit hitters with their high draft picks the next few years.
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Not likely. It's obvious we are getting back to the way we ran things 10 years ago. And that way was to load up on pitching, and use our deep core of pitching as currency in trades. It also allows us to spend less money on the rotation, and more money on hitting, since we should have a steady supply of pitching to replace pitchers we may lose to FA or injury.

And that is smart to me. We develop pitching well. Might as well stick to doing what you do best, and use that to help you fix the areas that you don't develop well.
 
Edited the thread title again. What's the deal with this deal? I've never seen so much confirmation of non-confirmed information.
 
Carp said:
Royals had basically zero major league talent when Moore showed up, aside from Greinke, Butler, and Gordon. So that isn't a great comparison. Braves still have a great rotation and at least 2 good hitters. Hell, I personally don't see us finishing any worse than last yr, and with a little luck, may be we could get that 2nd wild card. People are really underestimating how good our rotation is going to be this yr.

Saying you know how good this team is going to be in 2-3 yrs is what is ignorant. A lot can happen between now and then. We didn't clear a ton of payroll for nothing.
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Wait, your excuse is that there was no major league talent in the Royals? Moore was hired back in June of 2006. It took him over 6 years to get a team over .500. We drafted and traded Jason Heyward in less time than that.
 
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