Charleston SC shooting

Personally, I think that memorials to war dead are fine. Flying the Confederate battle flag is of a different order. Apples and oranges.

To the Nazi defenders of Germany.

My take on this is that I believe individuals should have the right to fly whatever flags they want on their own property outside of neighborhood rules agreed to by the neighborhood community. In regards to public space... I don't think a government entity should fly the confederate flag anywhere. It's just not in good taste.
 
I don't see much difference when the flag is flown at a memorial for said war dead. After all, they did fight for that flag. It's a nasty truth.

Now, random people flying it on their cars/boats/houses? I don't understand that and never really have.

For the record, I could care less about the flag flying. Take it down. I just resent the carpet-bagging mentality rife in the national media which is painting the flag as this symbol actively promulgating racial hate in SC. That's just uninformed (not to say that South Carolina isn't racist -- it is, almost unbearably), because it has less to do with the flag itself and more to do with the reasons why people want it to stay/put it there to begin with.

Well, that's just the thing. The flag is a powerful symbol. Removing it won't do a thing to address the racism of individual South Carolinians, but it would IMO send a message that said racism is not tacitly endorsed by the state. The flag at the memorial represents a lame and half-assed compromise that removed it from the actual statehouse dome. That's the level of bull**** that we're wading through here.

I'm not attacking you, because I don't doubt that your heart is in the right place, but I fundamentally disagree with you about the message that flying the flag at the Statehouse sends, and with your assessment of why it remains. To say that it has nothing to do with endemic racism is, IMO, to have your head in the sand.

What private citizens do on their own property is their business.
 
I love how a state that recently voted for an Indian woman as its governor and elected the first black republican senator from the south since 1881 is this big racist state.

We all remember those big massive riots a month ago in South Carolina after the officer shot the unarmed black in the back. How much millions in damage did all the blacks who felt they have been discriminated against in SC and rioted in the streets cause? That's right. $0. Not one riot. Unlike all these very well run northern liberal states can say.
 
To say that it has nothing to do with endemic racism is, IMO, to have your head in the sand.

What private citizens do on their own property is their business.

I've not quite said that, but I have tried to emphasize that it is not the sole contributor. Would its removal represent a significant gesture by the state right here, right now? Certainly.

If it had been removed in 2000 would the ripple effect have prevented Roof from acting the way he did a few nights ago? I honestly don't believe that it would have.

What festers in this state, especially in this city, goes well beyond any flag.

You liken my position to having my head in the sand, I see yours as having blinders on.

I don't doubt that we have the same vision, just different ways of approaching it.
 
Just to make a point here, Stonewall Jackson, a Confederate General was known to pray openly in his church before the war with slaves, runaway slaves, and freed blacks and when he prayed, he meant it, unlike so many I see praying openly today. The Civil War, and in general, war between northern states and southern states was about SOOOOOO much more than just race issues and slavery, and while I could never blame a black person for thinking otherwise, the horrible cancerous institution of slavery was only one blemish on a society that was attacked by another society with a whole buttload of blemishes of their own.
 
Just to make a point here, Stonewall Jackson, a Confederate General was known to pray openly in his church before the war with slaves, runaway slaves, and freed blacks and when he prayed, he meant it, unlike so many I see praying openly today. The Civil War, and in general, war between northern states and southern states was about SOOOOOO much more than just race issues and slavery, and while I could never blame a black person for thinking otherwise, the horrible cancerous institution of slavery was only one blemish on a society that was attacked by another society with a whole buttload of blemishes of their own.

People forget that Abe Lincoln wasn't all about ending slavery at first and many in the North (ny draft riots) weren't exactly lining up to free slaves or welcome them with open arms into their city during those times.
 
People forget that Abe Lincoln wasn't all about ending slavery at first and many in the North (ny draft riots) weren't exactly lining up to free slaves or welcome them with open arms into their city during those times.

Dude, people forget a LOT of stuff, that's what I"m here for, though people now still subscribe to the same philosophy as that great Simon and Garfunkel song The Boxer, "still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest". I"m sure you've seen it many times here, people love me when I'm supporting them and blasting the other side and think I'm a gigantic ahole when I tell a truth that doesn't make them feel so "warm and fuzzy". It's all just a part of the 24/7/365 fun that is "being me". :/
 
I've not quite said that, but I have tried to emphasize that it is not the sole contributor. Would its removal represent a significant gesture by the state right here, right now? Certainly.

If it had been removed in 2000 would the ripple effect have prevented Roof from acting the way he did a few nights ago? I honestly don't believe that it would have.

What festers in this state, especially in this city, goes well beyond any flag.

You liken my position to having my head in the sand, I see yours as having blinders on.

I don't doubt that we have the same vision, just different ways of approaching it.

I certainly don't believe that gesture would have prevented this. To argue that it isn't at all significant is still missing the point.
 
"In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing."- Theodore Roosevelt

Gentleman, the time for rhetoric is long over. How many more debates will we continue to have to have? I feel this quote from Roosevelt sums it up well. People are scared to do something because it might be " the wrong thing". But hell, we won't know it until we try it. Yet these idiot conservatives will sit around trying to get us to believe there is nothing we can do, so we shouldn't change a thing. They'll say "We shouldn't try stricter gun laws" or "gun laws will never work". But it's time to try it. Even if it's the wrong thing, even if the lawmakers have to go back and amend it, it is better to do the wromg thing than to do nothing at all. And how do we even know it's the wrong thing, unless we try it?

I know you bible thumpin gun carryin republicans have a hard time with that, but it's time to deal with it. You've had your way for far too long and look where it's gotten us!!!!
 
"In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing."- Theodore Roosevelt

Gentleman, the time for rhetoric is long over. How many more debates will we continue to have to have? I feel this quote from Roosevelt sums it up well. People are scared to do something because it might be " the wrong thing". But hell, we won't know it until we try it. Yet these idiot conservatives will sit around trying to get us to believe there is nothing we can do, so we shouldn't change a thing. They'll say "We shouldn't try stricter gun laws" or "gun laws will never work". But it's time to try it. Even if it's the wrong thing, even if the lawmakers have to go back and amend it, it is better to do the wromg thing than to do nothing at all. And how do we even know it's the wrong thing, unless we try it?

I know you bible thumpin gun carryin republicans have a hard time with that, but it's time to deal with it. You've had your way for far too long and look where it's gotten us!!!!

OK, who exactly are you and what the eff have you done with Toma4Life??? You're starting to scare the sheet out of me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
I love how a state that recently voted for an Indian woman as its governor and elected the first black republican senator from the south since 1881 is this big racist state.

We all remember those big massive riots a month ago in South Carolina after the officer shot the unarmed black in the back. How much millions in damage did all the blacks who felt they have been discriminated against in SC and rioted in the streets cause? That's right. $0. Not one riot. Unlike all these very well run northern liberal states can say.
could it be that they fired the cop and then charged him with murder?

Na,

Couldn't be that

But I love that you are sticking up for a state that kept electing an old man that was an open racist and ran for president on those terms and your example is a white cop murdering an unarmed black man to prove how sane they are
 
People forget that Abe Lincoln wasn't all about ending slavery at first

Patent lie. Lincoln wasn't a radical abolitionist, but he set out a plan to abolish it democratically and constitutionally. South realizing what would happen, and left. Cause of them leaving, Lincoln was able to mechanize his plan.
 
my point though in the post was that sarcastic bs of "we believe in freedom of speech" and that we all have limits on free speech. it isn't like Germany hates free speech. hell, you just showed a picture that allowed the same type of hate groups to march etc in Germany.

i love Germany too :cheers:

So you don't think people should be able to waive any flag they want? Or just governments?
 
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