The Atlanta Braves Are Very Bad, And Fredi Gonzalez Isn't Helping...

All these are valid points, but why no mention of schedule?? We have played the toughest schedule in MLB to this point. It's not like the outcome is surprising anyone.
 
VirginiaBrave said:
All these are valid points, but why no mention of schedule?? We have played the toughest schedule in MLB to this point. It's not like the outcome is surprising anyone.
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I don't know why you insist on defending this trash.

The front office tore everything down and now need to live with the consequences... the attendance numbers this year are going to be u-g-l-y
 
sturg33 said:
I don't know why you insist on defending this trash.

The front office tore everything down and now need to live with the consequences... the attendance numbers this year are going to be u-g-l-y
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So we should only argue points that make us feel good?
 
sturg33 said:
I don't know why you insist on defending this trash.

The front office tore everything down and now need to live with the consequences... the attendance numbers this year are going to be u-g-l-y
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would've been much worse right now if it weren't torn down.

just think, we could've had just two draft picks right now instead of:

Fried
Dustin Peterson
Mallex
Inciarte
Blair
Swanson

But I guess we lost the opportunity to be mediocre instead of plain bad last year by keeping Heyward and J-Up, which I mean is just terrible.

I'll take the 10-15 extra wins and two draft picks, plz! -___-
 
sturg33 said:
I don't know why you insist on defending this trash.

The front office tore everything down and now need to live with the consequences... the attendance numbers this year are going to be u-g-l-y
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I defend what I feel like deserves defending. We have got three guys on our team right now, possibly four that will be on our next contender. Freddie, Mallex, and Ender are probably going to here but their not locks now that I think about it. Look I realize this is difficult to watch after the last 25 years or so of Braves baseball. I think it was Cajun that said the other night this is '89-90 all over again. The seeds have been planted now its time to let them grow. If you are so desperate to feel good about the Braves all you need to do is look at the minor league boxscores.
 
yeezus said:
would've been much worse right now if it weren't torn down.

just think, we could've had just two draft picks right now instead of:

Fried
Dustin Peterson
Mallex
Inciarte
Blair
Swanson

But I guess we lost the opportunity to be mediocre instead of plain bad last year by keeping Heyward and J-Up, which I mean is just terrible.

I'll take the 10-15 extra wins and two draft picks, plz! -___-
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We know we know. It's always smart to trade 7 impact players under the age of 27.
 
sturg33 said:
We know we know. It's always smart to trade 7 impact players under the age of 27.
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Half of whom will be out of our price range. I get that J. Upton and Heyward are impact guys. I don't see anyone else on the list that screams "Impact!" Simmons is an exemplary defender, but I don't think he's ever going to hit. I don't like Wood as much as others (and I could be wrong), but he looks like a middle-of-the-rotation guy and while those guys aren't dime-a-dozen, they aren't irreplaceable either. Keeping Kimbrel made little sense given the turnover (and his performance may fall off). That's five guys. Not seeing any other guys who should be discussed. Gattis? Please. Peraza? We'll see. Kubitza? I keed. I keed.

I'm not endorsing all the moves that have been made and there have clearly been fits and starts, but the team had reached a crossroads and we could have limped along sitting on the edge of the playoffs (if that) for a few seasons, but I don't know what that would accomplish. I may be in the minority, but I felt that the decks should have been cleared a few years earlier.

As for this year's edition, this is a bad team that is playing pretty badly right now. Thought the bullpen would be a little better, but I'm under no illusions about the offense. Fredi doesn't help, but our woes go beyond his quirks and questionable decisions.
 
50PoundHead said:
Half of whom will be out of our price range. I get that J. Upton and Heyward are impact guys. I don't see anyone else on the list that screams "Impact!" Simmons is an exemplary defender, but I don't think he's ever going to hit. I don't like Wood as much as others (and I could be wrong), but he looks like a middle-of-the-rotation guy and while those guys aren't dime-a-dozen, they aren't irreplaceable either. Keeping Kimbrel made little sense given the turnover (and his performance may fall off). That's five guys. Not seeing any other guys who should be discussed. Gattis? Please. Peraza? We'll see. Kubitza? I keed. I keed.

I'm not endorsing all the moves that have been made and there have clearly been fits and starts, but the team had reached a crossroads and we could have limped along sitting on the edge of the playoffs (if that) for a few seasons, but I don't know what that would accomplish. I may be in the minority, but I felt that the decks should have been cleared a few years earlier.

As for this year's edition, this is a bad team that is playing pretty badly right now. Thought the bullpen would be a little better, but I'm under no illusions about the offense. Fredi doesn't help, but our woes go beyond his quirks and questionable decisions.
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I included Gattis and Shelby in in the 7 players.

We may have different definitions of the word impact. I think of it as productive and useful starters.

We'll be very lucky if the prospects we get back turn out to be more valuable then the 7 young impact players we traded away (plus Peraza)

And yes - once they decided to tear the ship down, many of the corresponding moves made sense. But I've never seen a professional franchise trade away so much young talent
 
sturg33 said:
I included Gattis and Shelby in in the 7 players.

We may have different definitions of the word impact. I think of it as productive and useful starters.

We'll be very lucky if the prospects we get back turn out to be more valuable then the 7 young impact players we traded away (plus Peraza)

And yes - once they decided to tear the ship down, many of the corresponding moves made sense. But I've never seen a professional franchise trade away so much young talent
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My only gripe (and I think it's minor) is that we could have cobbled enough dough together to keep one of the Heyward/J. Upton duo. That may have changed the outlook somewhat because you can keep guys like Simmons around if you have enough offense around him (without other hitters, Simmons is a luxury because as good as his defense is, you can't hold the opponent to negative runs). Then you fill in with some solid roleplayers and you have a borderline contender.

The Olivera deal is looking worse by the day and the brass was clearly hypnotized by something in his game and I'd certainly want that deal back. I've always thought Wood was going to be moved after he and Fredi didn't see eye-to-eye about Wood's reaction when he was getting squeezed by the ump during a game last year, but that's no real excuse to trade a guy unless there was more there. Interesting that the Reds are moving Peraza around the diamond in Louisville. They've played three games and Peraza has one game at SS, one at 2B, and one in CF. Curious as to why they would be doing that with him at this stage of his career.

Anyway, lots to debate. Clearly this year looks to be a big step back in the W/L department after the noise that there wouldn't be a repeat of last season. I'm especially disheartened that the bullpen looks as bad as last year's and there were a lot of decent low-cost/low-risk relief pitchers on the market over the winter (and even into the spring).
 
yeezus said:
would've been much worse right now if it weren't torn down.

just think, we could've had just two draft picks right now instead of:

Fried

Dustin Peterson

Mallex

Inciarte

Blair

Swanson

But I guess we lost the opportunity to be mediocre instead of plain bad last year by keeping Heyward and J-Up, which I mean is just terrible.

I'll take the 10-15 extra wins and two draft picks, plz! -___-
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No, it certainly wouldn't. And there's absolutely no guarantee that the players you listed ever do anything.

It's probable that several of the 30 guys we got back will be useful, or good, simply because we got 30 of them. And I think we've got pretty good scouts, from what I hear.

But most rebuilding projects end badly. Long periods of suck. Brewers, Mariners, San Diego, Cleveland. Pittsburgh took 20 years to get back.

I would've signed one or the other of Upton or Heyward, fished for a couple of reclamation projects which we seem to be pretty good at (Harang, maybe Chacin), let the bad money fall off (instead of trading for different bad money - did it really help to trade CJ?), prepared to invest heavily in player development and the international market, just as we've done.

And kept trying to win.

I've been pretty consistent about this since Wren was fired, Junior was promoted and the messaging changed. I don't see why we had to blow it up. I thought Wren was very competent, even if he was a dick, which of course is suspect because of the smear campaign.

I'd rather compete and have a GM who was a competent dick than one of these fantasy GMs.
 
50PoundHead said:
My only gripe (and I think it's minor) is that we could have cobbled enough dough together to keep one of the Heyward/J. Upton duo. That may have changed the outlook somewhat because you can keep guys like Simmons around if you have enough offense around him (without other hitters, Simmons is a luxury because as good as his defense is, you can't hold the opponent to negative runs). Then you fill in with some solid roleplayers and you have a borderline contender.

The Olivera deal is looking worse by the day and the brass was clearly hypnotized by something in his game and I'd certainly want that deal back. I've always thought Wood was going to be moved after he and Fredi didn't see eye-to-eye about Wood's reaction when he was getting squeezed by the ump during a game last year, but that's no real excuse to trade a guy unless there was more there. Interesting that the Reds are moving Peraza around the diamond in Louisville. They've played three games and Peraza has one game at SS, one at 2B, and one in CF. Curious as to why they would be doing that with him at this stage of his career.

Anyway, lots to debate. Clearly this year looks to be a big step back in the W/L department after the noise that there wouldn't be a repeat of last season. I'm especially disheartened that the bullpen looks as bad as last year's and there were a lot of decent low-cost/low-risk relief pitchers on the market over the winter (and even into the spring).
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I think that's a major difference in direction. You then trade the other and rebuild on the fly, investing heavily in player development and the international market (we still could have aggressively built deals - we bought Touki, remember?) which is what they originally sold us. Hart did NOT sell us a team EVER that would be torn down to sub-60 wins. Hart said Atlanta wouldn't stand for that, it wasn't Cleveland.

nsacpi, that is why I laughed out loud when you pronounced this front office straight shooters. Bull****. They completely changed directions and publicly patted themselves on the back as they did so.

This is a train wreck.

Remember?
 
Yeah, this "rebuild" was a sham from the start. I just hope it ends up working out. I like our talent in the minors.
 
50PoundHead said:
Half of whom will be out of our price range. I get that J. Upton and Heyward are impact guys. I don't see anyone else on the list that screams "Impact!" Simmons is an exemplary defender, but I don't think he's ever going to hit. I don't like Wood as much as others (and I could be wrong), but he looks like a middle-of-the-rotation guy and while those guys aren't dime-a-dozen, they aren't irreplaceable either. Keeping Kimbrel made little sense given the turnover (and his performance may fall off). That's five guys. Not seeing any other guys who should be discussed. Gattis? Please. Peraza? We'll see. Kubitza? I keed. I keed.

I'm not endorsing all the moves that have been made and there have clearly been fits and starts, but the team had reached a crossroads and we could have limped along sitting on the edge of the playoffs (if that) for a few seasons, but I don't know what that would accomplish. I may be in the minority, but I felt that the decks should have been cleared a few years earlier.

As for this year's edition, this is a bad team that is playing pretty badly right now. Thought the bullpen would be a little better, but I'm under no illusions about the offense. Fredi doesn't help, but our woes go beyond his quirks and questionable decisions.
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You've got to pay somebody to compete. Why not our guys? Bottom feeders have $75-90m payrolls now. Well run organizations come in around $130-150m.

If those numbers are unreachable - and I think that's unlikely, given who our parent is - Liberty needs to put the "Corporate Runoff" asset up for sale.

There are two types of investor - a growth investor and an income investor. Baseball teams - except for the Marlins, who pay themselves $30m/yr in management fees to manage the club - are clearly not income producing assets. You get money out by borrowing against the astronomical value of the franchise and settle up when you sell for what is usually a 20-30%/yr profit. If Liberty won't do that, we can't compete.
 
GovClintonTyree said:
I think that's a major difference in direction. You then trade the other and rebuild on the fly, investing heavily in player development and the international market (we still could have aggressively built deals - we bought Touki, remember?) which is what they originally sold us. Hart did NOT sell us a team EVER that would be torn down to sub-60 wins. Hart said Atlanta wouldn't stand for that, it wasn't Cleveland.

nsacpi, that is why I laughed out loud when you pronounced this front office straight shooters. Bull****. They completely changed directions and publicly patted themselves on the back as they did so.

This is a train wreck.

Remember?
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But unless we move some guys, we're still stuck with Melvin, Jr., and his albatross of a salary. I don't think Wren was a total incompetent, but I don't think he was particularly competent either. He did a bunch of "now-for-later" trades and some bad signings and I think he had played out his string. His draft strategy seemed to concentrate on high floor over high ceiling and although his drafts did produce a fair number of big leaguers, most seem to fall into the fringe player category. There are some notable exceptions, but too many Terdoslavich's.
 
50PoundHead said:
But unless we move some guys, we're still stuck with Melvin, Jr., and his albatross of a salary. I don't think Wren was a total incompetent, but I don't think he was particularly competent either. He did a bunch of "now-for-later" trades and some bad signings and I think he had played out his string. His draft strategy seemed to concentrate on high floor over high ceiling and although his drafts did produce a fair number of big leaguers, most seem to fall into the fringe player category. There are some notable exceptions, but too many Terdoslavich's.
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Presumably we could've had the exact same deal even if we had taken a competitive path like Gov is suggesting.

It's all hypothetical, anyway. I'd have foreseen some hard times if we went another direction, but I certainly can't cosign the pov that the way things went down was self-evidently both the best option and the brightest hope.
 
50PoundHead said:
But unless we move some guys, we're still stuck with Melvin, Jr., and his albatross of a salary. I don't think Wren was a total incompetent, but I don't think he was particularly competent either. He did a bunch of "now-for-later" trades and some bad signings and I think he had played out his string. His draft strategy seemed to concentrate on high floor over high ceiling and although his drafts did produce a fair number of big leaguers, most seem to fall into the fringe player category. There are some notable exceptions, but too many Terdoslavich's.
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Melvin? Bourn/Swisher. Jump ball. Or maybe not, since Mel was useful in SD last year.

I do understand your other points, but I would point out...we know he was under extraordinary budget constraints because of Liberty's self-imposed salary cap. I think that may have impacted the drafts because we were under the gun to pick guys with "high signability". Right? And there were some trades for now, but that's because....well, because we were trying to win now. One of the two uses for the farm.

He didn't do well when he had a pocket full of money. But know, he was always shopping second tier guys instead of first. By definition, there's a bigger chance of a bust. I thought he had some very bad luck, too, and won in spite of that.

I don't think he was Branch Rickey, but I think he was a good GM. Dave Dombrowski picked him up in Boston, what does that tell you?
 
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