haha. Good point.
Position players and WAR
- Thread starter zitothebrave
- Start date
haha. Good point.
zitothebrave
Connoisseur of Minors
Have you watched Dom Brown in the OF ? Dude is a freaking lollercoaster. He almost cost the Phillies a game where they had a 4 or 5 run lead by dropping a can of corn.
Also nice try throwing wonder douce in there like he has a dog in the fight.
Well thats the whole point. You claim Heyward isn't saving 1 run for every 12 plays he makes, and I say maybe he is since every extra play he makes prevents an extra base hit.
A single good play by Heyward prevents much more damage than a single good play by Simmons. The fact you see Simmons make so many more good plays is precisely why you "feel" he has more of an effect on the game.
GovClintonTyree
<B>Vencer a Los Doyers</B>
I could not agree more. D impact is overstated. Maybe not for a SS, but for a corner OF...
It think the point it, it's unlikely. But defensive stats assume that anyways.
Yet another good reason why defensive stats are terrible to include in a stat that determines actual value.
I didn't care for Heyward's defensive metrics (since the eye is the biggest factor anyway, not statistics...) in RF, but he certainly proved to me he had way more range and talent playing CF than Boss.
BremanFan88
Playing the Waiting Game
I'm not sure why some want to devalue defense. Hitting isn't just the only part of the game of baseball. Defense is a major part of the game and just as important if not more important then hitting. There's a reason good fielding teams tend to make it to the playoffs. But then again some people think a football game that ends 63-62 is somehow how a "good game"... This is why the DH is coming to the NL sooner than later. The fans need their offensive fix cause that's all that seems to matter anymore.
Why? As Enscheff stated, pretty much every good play a corner OF will make will turn an extra base hit into an out. No, they don't get the same amount of action a CF or SS does but the great plays they do save prevents big hits. And that can add up pretty quickly. Defense is important at every position.
You can value good defense but yet still realize that there is currently no good way to quantify it. When someone develops something that does that, I'll gladly get behind it.
All I will say is there is a reason that the generally recognized best defenders of all time rank at the top of these defensive metric lists and players known as horrible defenders rank at the bottom. They are doing something right whether people want to admit it or not. Is it perfect? No. But it's the best we have and a lot better than the old eye ball test. Now I don't necessarily agree with their inclusion into WAR as single season defensive metrics have the SSS effect on them. It takes about 3 years of data to equal what one year of hitting data would be. So you can see large changes from year to year in defensive metrics just like you can see large changes in offensive stats from month to month. And that's without even discussing a players ability to decline in defense as they get older, etc. But WAR is designed to show what a player did that year so what are you going to do.
cajunrevenge
Well-known member
I agree. Its just a guessing game right ni w trying to mix offensive and defensive value into one stat.
I also dont like when fip is used for WAR, it is a good predictor of era but that doesn't change what has already happened. You can't say a player with a 5 ERA and 3.50 FIP has been more valuable than someone with a 3.50 ERA and 5 FIP.
It depends. The pitcher with a 3.50 ERA and 5 FIP could have Simmons playing short for him and the player with a 5 ERA and 3.50 FIP could have Pastornicky playing short. Defense does impact era.
Definitely.
Sure it can, but we're talking about actual performance, which is what WAR is supposed to gauge. It might be safer bet to take the pitcher with the lower FIP moving forward, but results are what matter when talking about past performance.
I think that with enough sample size defensive metrics do a pretty good job of telling you who is the best SS, the best RF etc. However, I think they do a pretty inaccurate job of quantifying runs saved, wins, etc. I will take a 4owar/1 dwar guy all day over a 1owar/4dwar guy.
Yeah. But defense can determine that performance. ERA, like wins (although not close to that level), is a team stat. Teams with crappy defenses are going to allow more runs. Earned and unearned. There is a reason the Royals lead the AL in ERA. They have the majors best defense. The Tigers have the AL's best pitching but their defense (or lack thereof) costs them several runs.
That may be true. I know the defense first guys are not as valuable on the open market.
zitothebrave
Connoisseur of Minors
The problem with your statement is that there is a good way to quantify it. Sure it's not 100% accurate but it's about 90% accurate they're called linear weights.
No, it's because Simmons saves so many more plays simply by having more balls hit toward him. There is a reason SS is considered a defensive premium position and RF is not.
BC no one in their right mind would claim Heyward has been the better player in 2013. Or any of the other guys listed.