Braves and Analytics

E

Enscheff

Well-known member
We spend a lot of time harping on Braves managers for making in game moves that are questionable tactically (to put it nicely). Turns out it may not have been their fault.

Snitker: “I told him, ‘Hey, I’m 62 years old and have spent my entire career relying on my gut and my eyes,’” said Snitker. “But getting to know the people that Alex has brought in has been enlightening. This is kind of where we’re going in the game, and… they’re showing us the information. And there’s a lot to it. It’s very interesting for somebody like me that doesn’t have that background.

“Now I kind of get what I’ve been reading about, what I’ve been hearing about with the analytics side of the game, I’m already understanding what that’s all about and now, as these guys say, we’re going to get the information and get it in the players’ hands. It’s kind of like you see what they’re talking about.”

That’s a quote from a guy who has never been approached with analytic data prior to AA being hired. That’s a guy who has the curiousity to do some reading on his own, but couldn’t realistically be expected to come up with this type of data on his own.

A manager needs to be able to relay this information to players, and use it to make sound decisions. If he doesn’t have any such data, it’s crazy to ding him for not using it.

I think Snit deserves fresh evaluation now that it’s known he was managing without all the tools most managers have.
 
Not all that surprising. We've been saying for awhile the previous FO, with the moves they have made, didn't seem to be very analytically inclined. This is good news going forward.

I think in todays game the best manager is one who has the personality of a Bobby Cox who can manage personalities and then the willingness to take data a good FO provides him to make in game decisions. We'll see what happens this year.
 
thewupk said:
Not all that surprising. We've been saying for awhile the previous FO, with the moves they have made, didn't seem to be very analytically inclined. This is good news going forward.

I think in todays game the best manager is one who has the personality of a Bobby Cox who can manage personalities and then the willingness to take data a good FO provides him to make in game decisions. We'll see what happens this year.
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Pozzies constantly defended the FO by claiming they were smarter than us and knew everything we know. Pozzies told us over and over that the FO knew what they were doing because they were professionals getting paid to do it, and we weren’t.

They either didn’t know it, or didn’t bother informing the guys that needed to know the information.
 
Enscheff said:
We spend a lot of time harping on Braves managers for making in game moves that are questionable tactically (to put it nicely). Turns out it may not have been their fault.

Snitker: “I told him, ‘Hey, I’m 62 years old and have spent my entire career relying on my gut and my eyes,’” said Snitker. “But getting to know the people that Alex has brought in has been enlightening. This is kind of where we’re going in the game, and… they’re showing us the information. And there’s a lot to it. It’s very interesting for somebody like me that doesn’t have that background.

“Now I kind of get what I’ve been reading about, what I’ve been hearing about with the analytics side of the game, I’m already understanding what that’s all about and now, as these guys say, we’re going to get the information and get it in the players’ hands. It’s kind of like you see what they’re talking about.”

That’s a quote from a guy who has never been approached with analytic data prior to AA being hired. That’s a guy who has the curiousity to do some reading on his own, but couldn’t realistically be expected to come up with this type of data on his own.

A manager needs to be able to relay this information to players, and use it to make sound decisions. If he doesn’t have any such data, it’s crazy to ding him for not using it.

I think Snit deserves fresh evaluation now that it’s known he was managing without all the tools most managers have.
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Wow, it's almost shocking to read these quotes. But thank goodness for this dawn of a new era. If this scandal had not taken place, who knows how much farther we would have fallen behind the other smarter organizations.
 
NYCBrave said:
Wow, it's almost shocking to read these quotes. But thank goodness for this dawn of a new era. If this scandal had not taken place, who knows how much farther we would have fallen behind the other smarter organizations.
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I want to know what the pozzies think about how much the FO knew compared to what we have been discussing the last few years.
 
It will be interesting going forward how much we hear from Don Sutton, Joe Simpson, Tom Glavine, even Bobby Cox about "letting baseball players play baseball" which is a euphemism for "we don't need no analytics."

I think those guys, among others, have had outsized influence and should be minimized by AA as he drags the organization into the 21st century.
 
The previous FO was controlled by dinosaurs. Even Coppy (a guy that some think is smart and cutting edge) was actually not even close to the cutting edge. And there was no evidence to ever indicate he was. His path upward at the Yankees was due to his catching the eye of Steinbrenner. Think about that.
 
What else is Snit going to say? I hate the new analytics guys AA is bringing on board?

While I love the new FO and it’s desire to join modern baseball, what would have stopped Snitker from lobbying for an improved analytics department last year? Maybe it would have fallen on deaf ears, but as the manager of a MLB baseball team he certainly could have shown a little more initiative, plenty of people on this board have regular day jobs but still have taken time to really dive into baseball analytics and their uses - but our manager couldn’t?

I guess I don’t understand why Snitker didn’t realize and act in this earlier.
 
Horsehide Harry said:
It will be interesting going forward how much we hear from Don Sutton, Joe Simpson, Tom Glavine, even Bobby Cox about "letting baseball players play baseball" which is a euphemism for "we don't need no analytics."

I think those guys, among others, have had outsized influence and should be minimized by AA as he drags the organization into the 21st century.
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It really doesn't matter. We can have the dumbest announcers and I am ok with that. As long as the front office catches up to the information and analytical revolution. I don't see a connection between the announcers and front office.
 
Preacher said:
I guess I don’t understand why Snitker didn’t realize and act in this earlier.
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I think the point is that the manager and players have to be given the information and in the previous front office no such information was forthcoming.
 
nsacpi said:
The previous FO was controlled by dinosaurs. Even Coppy (a guy that some think is smart and cutting edge) was actually not even close to the cutting edge. And there was no evidence to ever indicate he was. His path upward at the Yankees was due to his catching the eye of Steinbrenner. Think about that.
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The most telling quote from Coppy was when someone asked him what advanced stats he liked, and he replied with wRC...a publicly available stat with origins dating all the way back to Bill James’ early work.
 
nsacpi said:
It really doesn't matter. We can have the dumbest announcers and I am ok with that. As long as the front office catches up to the information and analytical revolution. I don't see a connection between the announcers and front office.
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The announces are in the ears of the coaches, scouts even the FO people and have been for years. No one has to listen, but they have in the past. After all, Don Sutton and Tom Glavine are in the HoF as is Hank Aaron (out of the picture now) and Chipper will be.

I'm not saying their voices shouldn't be heard but they shouldn't have outsized influence on how the Braves are now run.
 
Horsehide Harry said:
The announces are in the ears of the coaches, scouts even the FO people and have been for years. No one has to listen, but they have in the past. After all, Don Sutton and Tom Glavine are in the HoF as is Hank Aaron (out of the picture now) and Chipper will be.

I'm not saying their voices shouldn't be heard but they shouldn't have outsized influence on how the Braves are now run.
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Time to hit the mute button then.
 
Enscheff said:
The most telling quote from Coppy was when someone asked him what advanced stats he liked, and he replied with wRC...a publicly available stat with origins dating all the way back to Bill James’ early work.
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There is evidence from how they draft that they are not using analytics in understanding how to merge various demographic groups into an overall draft board. I think it is relative easy for the scouting side to rank the best HS pitchers, best college pitchers, best HS hitters and best college hitters within their group. But other teams are now using analytics to help with the final merge across groups. Hopefully, AA takes them there.
 
I’ve always had more of an “old school” thought in regards of player personnel. Baseball is an old school sport. However, things do change and so has my thinking. Yes, I still believe in an old school approach, but now, there is room for analytics in baseball. In today’s baseball world, there has to be a balance of both. I’ve resisted in the past, the Braves going in an analytical direction, but now, they seem to be with AA as the general manager, incorporating it in. And now, I don’t think it’s such a bad thing.
 
nsacpi said:
It really doesn't matter. We can have the dumbest announcers and I am ok with that. As long as the front office catches up to the information and analytical revolution. I don't see a connection between the announcers and front office.
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While I seriously doubt announcers have much influence on FO decisions, they undoubtedly echo the overall sentiment of the organization. The whole “he never played” sentiment was very prevalent in the Braves operations, and it lead to the opinions of less intelligent people holding more sway than warranted.

I mean seriously, there was talk of Tom Glavine taking on a prominent role in the FO, and more than a few people thought that was a valid idea. Left to their own musings, Weiss was actually hired to be the stats savvy voice in Snitker’s ear. These types of moves are pure lunacy. Luckily the adults stepped in and corrected the course of the franchise.

I am extremely hopeful that someone from corporate decided to step in and install a modern thinker in AA.
 
Enscheff said:
While I seriously doubt announcers have much influence on FO decisions, they undoubtedly echo the overall sentiment of the organization. The whole “he never played” sentiment was very prevalent in the Braves operations, and it lead to the opinions of less intelligent people holding more sway than warranted.

I mean seriously, there was talk of Tom Glavine taking on a prominent role in the FO, and more than a few people thought that was a valid idea. Left to their own musings, Weiss was actually hired to be the stats savvy voice in Snitker’s ear. These types of moves are pure lunacy. Luckily the adults stepped in and corrected the course of the franchise.

I am extremely hopeful that someone from corporate decided to step in and install a modern thinker in AA.
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With these quotes it softens the blow a bit from Snitker being hired before we got our GM in place. At least there is a little hope that he is open to the ideas. I really wish we would have held off on making some other decisions, though. Hiring Weiss and retaining Chuck Hernandez being the ones I think we are most likely to regret. Wish Anthopolous would have had a chance to get his guys fully in place
 
BeanieAntics said:
With these quotes it softens the blow a bit from Snitker being hired before we got our GM in place. At least there is a little hope that he is open to the ideas. I really wish we would have held off on making some other decisions, though. Hiring Weiss and retaining Chuck Hernandez being the ones I think we are most likely to regret. Wish Anthopolous would have had a chance to get his guys fully in place
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I don’t think Weiss can cause any harm. He will just sit in the dugout talking about “winning baseball”.

Chuck might cause significant long term harm to the organization though. Every single pitcher on the roster last season either took significant steps backwards in command, or failed to improve at all. Whatever he does, it isn’t helping, and could prove detrimental to all the young arms the Braves are relying on so heavily for the next decade.

Things like eliminating Fried’s use of the four seamer, improving Newk’s command a bit, and correcting sequencing for guys with average MLB stuff like Sims and Wisler are exactly what modern pitching coaches should be able to do. I see no evidence of any of that happening with the Braves. And no, having pitchers “talk to Glavine” doesn’t count for ****.
 
Enscheff said:
I don’t think Weiss can cause any harm. He will just sit in the dugout talking about “winning baseball”.

Chuck might cause significant long term harm to the organization though. Every single pitcher on the roster last season either took significant steps backwards in command, or failed to improve at all. Whatever he does, it isn’t helping, and could prove detrimental to all the young arms the Braves are relying on so heavily for the next decade.

Things like eliminating Fried’s use of the four seamer, improving Newk’s command a bit, and correcting sequencing for guys with average MLB stuff like Sims and Wisler are exactly what modern pitching coaches should be able to do. I see no evidence of any of that happening with the Braves. And no, having pitchers “talk to Glavine” doesn’t count for ****.
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My hope is that Gohara's stuff is good enough to overcome the poor coaching and reach his potential. Then by the time guys like Soroka and Allard are ready to come up, we have someone a little better in place.
 
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