Around the League: 2017 offseason edition / 2018 Season

Bill James seems awfully old fashioned on this one in some respects though the overall conclusion of Andruw being a No is reasonable.

His thesis is that Andruw is clearly not a Hall of Famer based on his offense and that it would therefore require definitive proof that he is one of the greater defenders of all time to consider him. He to a large degree dismisses or expresses agnosticism about the current defensive metrics (defendable) and for whatever reason dismisses what I recall being a fairly broad consensus of people at the time.

Basically he's saying you can't prove he's one of the greatest defenders of all time so you can't show he's deserving. Pointing out that previous people denied didn't have the benefit of defensive stats that could have gotten them in.

1) Why should past denials based on lack of information lead to the conclusion that current consideration should be equally in the dark.
2) The players he mentioned were in no way shape of form regarded to be as good defensively in their time as Andruw was.
3) This seems to be in many ways dismissive of the value of defense to the game. He's suggesting it is undefinable and to some degree less important.

Granted, I sort of agree with him that defensive metrics are far from established and are too inconsistent for my taste. I also tend to find defense less important overall than offense.

But I don't really care for the suggestion that maybe Andruw wasn't actually so good at defense. It seems pretty clear he was.
 
Southcack77 said:
Bill James seems awfully old fashioned on this one in some respects though the overall conclusion of Andruw being a No is reasonable.

His thesis is that Andruw is clearly not a Hall of Famer based on his offense and that it would therefore require definitive proof that he is one of the greater defenders of all time to consider him. He to a large degree dismisses or expresses agnosticism about the current defensive metrics (defendable) and for whatever reason dismisses what I recall being a fairly broad consensus of people at the time.

Basically he's saying you can't prove he's one of the greatest defenders of all time so you can't show he's deserving. Pointing out that previous people denied didn't have the benefit of defensive stats that could have gotten them in.

1) Why should past denials based on lack of information lead to the conclusion that current consideration should be equally in the dark.

2) The players he mentioned were in no way shape of form regarded to be as good defensively in their time as Andruw was.

3) This seems to be in many ways dismissive of the value of defense to the game. He's suggesting it is undefinable and to some degree less important.

Granted, I sort of agree with him that defensive metrics are far from established and are too inconsistent for my taste. I also tend to find defense less important overall than offense.

But I don't really care for the suggestion that maybe Andruw wasn't actually so good at defense. It seems pretty clear he was.
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Then screw bill James. Andruw should most definetely be in
 
The bottom line is this: You don't need any kind of formula other than eyesight to know Andruw Jones was an incredibly elite defender.

If you don't value that, it's on you, and yes, Andruw's offensive decline in later years makes him more of a toss-up.

But that tweet shows, honestly, remarkable ignorance.
 
I just don't understand Bill James' point here. Defensive metrics aren't where their offensive counterparts are, but they still do a reasonably good job of evaluating a player's value defensively. And by almost any metric out there, Andruw Jones is clearly the best defensive CF of all time. I made a post a few weeks ago that suggested by some metrics, he is the 2nd best defensive player of all time regardless of position. Only second to Brooks Robinson. If you accept that the defensive metrics even paint a vague picture of a player's value, Andruw was good enough to be a hall of famer (especially considering his offensive contributions). So basically what I am saying is: If you don't believe Andruw Jones did enough to be a Hall of Famer, then you don't value defensive metrics at all. And I know that Bill James does, which is why his opinion on this is so confusing to me
 
Even if you have skepticism about defensive metrics and (I still do), I think anyone with half a brain can use both the stats and their eyes. And both of those will tell you that Andruw was unbelievably gifted as a defender. Certainly far better than anyone in his generation.
 
What's even more incredible is the number of people out there voting for Omar Vizquel over Andruw. No slight to Omar; he was a terrific defensive shortstop, played a long time and improved somewhat in offense for a bit, but that's a legitimate joke.
 
bravesnumberone said:
What's even more incredible is the number of people out there voting for Omar Vizquel over Andruw. No slight to Omar; he was a terrific defensive shortstop, played a long time and improved somewhat in offense for a bit, but that's a legitimate joke.
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Vizquel is a substantially worse candidate for inclusion than Andruw; it’s not even close. But he played a long time at the same mediocre level of offense, as oppposed to flashing very good production then falling off, so he’s getting more support.
 
So, somebody else noticed ridiculous trade proposals being posted by Braves fans over at MLBTR. One Braves fans did acknowledge that it's occurring but is not exclusive to Braves fans. At the same time, he expressed embarrassment at the endless whining about Heyward and Kimbrel getting traded and even that Heyward was worth $17MM!

In the comments:
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/01/braves-release-adonis-garcia-to-pursue-kbo-opportunity.html

Must believe that it's several of you fools posting this drivel on multiple sites under different user names.
 
Knucksie said:
So, somebody else noticed ridiculous trade proposals being posted by Braves fans over at MLBTR. One Braves fans did acknowledge that it's occurring but is not exclusive to Braves fans. At the same time, he expressed embarrassment at the endless whining about Heyward and Kimbrel getting traded and even that Heyward was worth $17MM!

In the comments:

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/01/braves-release-adonis-garcia-to-pursue-kbo-opportunity.html

Must believe that it's several of you fools posting this drivel on multiple sites under different user names.
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Yeah, all fans post crazy trade ideas. I saw one the other day that was Matt Kemp and Alex Verdugo for Yelich. In their mind it makes sense. I want Yelich, don't want Kemp and wouldn't need Verdugo so let's do it.

But yes, I see some doozies from Braves fans. Any deal that has Wisler or Blair in it should not be taken seriously.
 
Knucksie said:
So, somebody else noticed ridiculous trade proposals being posted by Braves fans over at MLBTR. One Braves fans did acknowledge that it's occurring but is not exclusive to Braves fans. At the same time, he expressed embarrassment at the endless whining about Heyward and Kimbrel getting traded and even that Heyward was worth $17MM!

In the comments:
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/01/braves-release-adonis-garcia-to-pursue-kbo-opportunity.html

Must believe that it's several of you fools posting this drivel on multiple sites under different user names.
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I would love to see some examples of your extremely insightful trade proposals.

I've never seen you contribute anything even remotely resembling an idea...ever.
 
Enscheff said:
The Padres have decided against trading away a valuable and volatile asset in favor of guaranteeing him more money.

That is a move done by a contending team. Does anyone think the Padres are a contending team?
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Maybe they view that extra year or two of control as adding to his trade value? Its not a huge contract or anything, so by extending him maybe his last year or two fall within their window. Or maybe he performs really well this year in a lost season and some other team will view him as a long term bullpen solution and offer more than they otherwise would have? I'm just looking for the Padre's perspective on this.
 
BeanieAntics said:
Maybe they view that extra year or two of control as adding to his trade value? Its not a huge contract or anything, so by extending him maybe his last year or two fall within their window. Or maybe he performs really well this year in a lost season and some other team will view him as a long term bullpen solution and offer more than they otherwise would have? I'm just looking for the Padre's perspective on this.
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$19M over 3 guaranteed years when they will be paying him $3M this year. That’s $16M over 2 years (one of which was going to be a cheaper arb year anyways) when Reed just signed for 2/17.

I don’t see any surplus value added with his deal. They took on all the risk of guaranteeing 3 years for a BP arm in exchange for not having to give him 4 years.

This is a move made by a team that thinks they are ready to compete.
 
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