Impeachment

Yeah, the spin is off the charts. Everything we can verify about the complaint so far has been true. The parts we cant yet verify are extremely bad for a lot of people. If they attempted to coverup the call that might as well be an admission of guilt.
 
cajunrevenge said:
Hypothetically speaking could Trump be removed from office by impeachment and still run in 2020. That would be super awkward.
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If so, he'd have to run as independent, cause there is zero way the Repubs give him the nod. But considering the investigations and lawsuits he would likely have against him, I'd say it's extremely unlikely. The rest of his dirty laundry is about to get aired really soon me thinks, and I think his tax returns getting released will be the catalyst.
 
Runnin said:

Why a Trump Impeachment Should Terrify You

What’s just and what’s wise aren’t always the same.

By Frank Bruni, Opinion Columnist
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Pretty much my fears in a nutshell. To compare this to either Nixon or Clinton doesn't really fit because the tenor of the nation was different then (although Nixon did just about everything he could to divide the country). Political tribalism has engulfed the country (actually, Gingrich's dogged pursuit of Bill's bedroom gymnastics may be the official starting point of the recent cycle) and the sides are clearl drawn. Regardless of whether there is an indictment by the House, there won't be a conviction, which makes this effort somewhat of a fool's errand.

All this said, I listened to the public radio broadcast of the hearing today and all I could take was the ranking Republican's serial "what about-ism" that really has nothing to do with this particular matter.
 
Cenk Uygur
@cenkuygur
·
6h
Let's note that @RashidaTlaib

was right all along on impeachment.

Whether you disagreed with her language

or not (how Victorian of you, if you did) , she was right that impeachment

was the right path. They had enough info back then &

now it's overwhelming.
 
I'm not going to speak of how things should be. I'm going to speak of how things actually are. And with the world as it is, moving forward on impeachment on this is 100% the wrong move for the Democrats. Here's why:

1. This will not oust Trump from office. The Senate is still controlled by Republicans and you're never getting enough on board to remove him from office. Absent something far, far, far more damning coming out, this wont be nearly enough. Think about it, if Trump supporters have been willing to stick with him through everything to this point, is this really going to sway them away from him?

2. By impeaching with no chance of removal, you're just weakening impeachment as a check on the President. The more impeachment is used as a partisan tool, the less respect it will be given as an institution and the less Presidents will fear it. Impeachment is one of our most important checks on Presidential power and we're already facing a trend of unsettling amounts of power being gathered by the Executive. Firing this bullet without a good chance of it hitting weakens a very vital check.

3. If the Democrats impeach over this, they turn a one time mistake of Republicans into the norm. Republicans were stupid to impeach Clinton like they did. Ever since the use of that power has been shied away from by both sides. If the Democrats impeach and fail to remove from office in what will be viewed as a partisan tactic, both sides will have done it so it can now be done at will. Next time you see a Democrat in the Oval Office and Republicans control congress, I expect we'll see another impeachment.

4. Trump supporters are Mongo from Blazing Saddles. As Gene Wilder says "Don't shoot him, you'll only make him mad." That's what's happening here. Running a constant negative publicity campaign against an elected official helps suppress turnout among their supporters. However, if you impeach Trump you're making a direct attack on him. You're not actually doing anything to hurt Trump, you're just making his supporters mad and mad people go vote. Impeachment is erecting a giant flagpole for Trump supporters to rally around.


Pelosi is many things but a fool is not one of them. She knows how the sausage is made and there's a reason she's been pumping the brakes on impeachment for so long. Unless Trump is found in bed with a dead woman or a live boy, you're going to have very little chance of removing him from office. Bringing impeachment and failing to remove Trump from office would be a disaster.

So wrap yourself in righteous indignation if you must. Rail about how the world should be. But the way the world actually is, you should be praying Trump isn't impeached without proof of something much, much worse and much, much more straight forward than this.
 
Well said striker42. Only thing I disagree with is that his supporters would find an explanation to excuse him from being found in bed with a dead woman or a live boy.

The real problem, at least to me, is that Congress refuses to do its real job and instead fights the person of the President to weaken the Executive branch instead of engaging in the process of making policy. And that is a bipartisan problem. I rarely invoke the Founders because I wasn't in the room and I don't know what they were thinking, but I don't believe they envisioned the current state of affairs.

I lived through the Nixon kerfuffle and perhaps the most unfortunate result of that entire affair is that the losing side has been focused on re-establishing the power of the Presidency, inappropriately in many cases, at all costs. It was most notable in the Bush 43 presidency, but there were hints of it in the Reagan administration as well. I think those who promote that angle see Trump as an empty--and extremely short-sighted, reckless, and largely ignorant--vessel to push the concept even further.
 
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I disagree that Republicans should not have brought impeachment hearings against Clinton. He displayed gross misconduct in office that, if done today, would absolutely get him impeached. It absolutely should have gotten him impeached in 98-99.
 
I think some Senate Reps would fold if the evidence was overwhelming and if public opinion broke against them. But not impeaching is a risk as well. I think they have to make a cumulative case without getting lost in the minutia.
 
striker42 said:
I'm not going to speak of how things should be. I'm going to speak of how things actually are. And with the world as it is, moving forward on impeachment on this is 100% the wrong move for the Democrats. Here's why:

1. This will not oust Trump from office. The Senate is still controlled by Republicans and you're never getting enough on board to remove him from office. Absent something far, far, far more damning coming out, this wont be nearly enough. Think about it, if Trump supporters have been willing to stick with him through everything to this point, is this really going to sway them away from him?

2. By impeaching with no chance of removal, you're just weakening impeachment as a check on the President. The more impeachment is used as a partisan tool, the less respect it will be given as an institution and the less Presidents will fear it. Impeachment is one of our most important checks on Presidential power and we're already facing a trend of unsettling amounts of power being gathered by the Executive. Firing this bullet without a good chance of it hitting weakens a very vital check.

3. If the Democrats impeach over this, they turn a one time mistake of Republicans into the norm. Republicans were stupid to impeach Clinton like they did. Ever since the use of that power has been shied away from by both sides. If the Democrats impeach and fail to remove from office in what will be viewed as a partisan tactic, both sides will have done it so it can now be done at will. Next time you see a Democrat in the Oval Office and Republicans control congress, I expect we'll see another impeachment.

4. Trump supporters are Mongo from Blazing Saddles. As Gene Wilder says "Don't shoot him, you'll only make him mad." That's what's happening here. Running a constant negative publicity campaign against an elected official helps suppress turnout among their supporters. However, if you impeach Trump you're making a direct attack on him. You're not actually doing anything to hurt Trump, you're just making his supporters mad and mad people go vote. Impeachment is erecting a giant flagpole for Trump supporters to rally around.


Pelosi is many things but a fool is not one of them. She knows how the sausage is made and there's a reason she's been pumping the brakes on impeachment for so long. Unless Trump is found in bed with a dead woman or a live boy, you're going to have very little chance of removing him from office. Bringing impeachment and failing to remove Trump from office would be a disaster.

So wrap yourself in righteous indignation if you must. Rail about how the world should be. But the way the world actually is, you should be praying Trump isn't impeached without proof of something much, much worse and much, much more straight forward than this.
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much much worse ?

Not sure where you set the bar
...........

Watergater after Watergater explains this is equal if not worse than Nixon.~3 years Trump has equaled or surpassed Nixon's Article 2 of Impeachment.
And that is just Article 2

My bar is a little higher than the dead girl or live boy threshold
 
I honestly dont understand the pearl clutching response instigated by White House talking points.

Be clear, the House was won by (D) with a mandate of reining in a rogue Administration
This is the process designed in the Constitution for just that purpose
 
I think what striker is saying is that in the current environment, impeachment simply isn't going to happen. Landslide re-election or not, Nixon had built up a truckload of enemies over his twenty-plus years in public life and there wasn't near as much loyalty to him politically as there is for Trump. The behavior of the Republicans in Congress towards Trump is driven by "primary-itis" and the fear that they will lose office. That wasn't there for Nixon.

As for Clinton, as reprehensible as his behavior was, there was really no constitutional basis for removing him from office. I've said it before, but I blame Newt Gingrich for heightening the "take no prisoners" approach to politics that has bedeviled us since.
 
Carp said:
I disagree that Republicans should not have brought impeachment hearings against Clinton. He displayed gross misconduct in office that, if done today, would absolutely get him impeached. It absolutely should have gotten him impeached in 98-99.
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Yup. It was a disgrace Clinton was not convicted by the Senate. Blind party loyalty cuts both ways unfortunately.
 
striker42 said:
3. If the Democrats impeach over this, they turn a one time mistake of Republicans into the norm.
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One time-mistake? Whoa Nellie. Abuse of office and corruption has been rampant under the Chosen One almost from his first day in office.
 
50PoundHead said:
As for Clinton, as reprehensible as his behavior was, there was really no constitutional basis for removing him from office.
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Perjury. Witness tampering (Lewinsky and his secretary Betty Currie). Asking Vernon Jordan to find Lewinsky a job.

Yeah. I think he abused his office enough to merit removal.
 
nsacpi said:
One time-mistake? Whoa Nellie. Abuse of office and corruption has been rampant under the Chosen One almost from his first day in office.
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Do you not think every president doesn’t do this? Trumps actions are highlighted because the liberal press hates him and Obama’s were hidden since the press loved him
 
50PoundHead said:
I think what striker is saying is that in the current environment, impeachment simply isn't going to happen. Landslide re-election or not, Nixon had built up a truckload of enemies over his twenty-plus years in public life and there wasn't near as much loyalty to him politically as there is for Trump. The behavior of the Republicans in Congress towards Trump is driven by "primary-itis" and the fear that they will lose office. That wasn't there for Nixon.

As for Clinton, as reprehensible as his behavior was, there was really no constitutional basis for removing him from office. I've said it before, but I blame Newt Gingrich for heightening the "take no prisoners" approach to politics that has bedeviled us since.
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Lets differentiate the 2 aspects of the process.
there is impeachment - a trial in the Senate.

Translating the impeachment, which will surly happen, being equivalent to an indictment. Where it shows there are grounds for a trial
The trial of the Senate is a, trial

Not all indictments bear an outcome of guilty.
 
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