Ukraine

goldfly said:
we are really going to argue over that?

i know it is in europe

are we going to act like it isn't the backyard for the western power that is know as europe and isn't actually part of it?
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I'm not saying this to be obstinate, but I view Ukraine as a fairly integral component of contemporary Eastern Europe.
 
BedellBrave said:
You make a wrong assumption. I am not advocating plunging in. I do want to consider this more myself. I'm not advocating jumping into a World War. But what I am saying is that Russia knows it can roll into Georgia, into the Ukraine, etc., without much fear of reprisals due to who Obama is and the type of foreign policy he has practiced. He has to be on top of things in advance and not always playing a reactionary game, where he twiddles his thumbs. His weak foreign policy, whether unintentionally or intentionally, is taking the US down to a second tier status in geo-politics. Maybe that's where we need to be. But there are consequences. And I'm not sure you younger guys understand that well...
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So what should have been done to avoid this? Russia would not have been deterred. What should be done in response? I don't mind not being world police. I'm in favor, actually. I don't consider that "weak," and I suppose that's where we differ.
 
yeezus said:
So what should have been done to avoid this? Russia would not have been deterred. What should be done in response? I don't mind not being world police. I'm in favor, actually. I don't consider that "weak," and I suppose that's where we differ.
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How old are you? I wonder if you remember living during the Cold War.

Why have we been the world's police?

Why do we engage in geo-politics to begin with?

What are the consequences - economic consequences - of being a 2nd tier player in that game?
 
Hawk said:
You are right -- our country is in no position to trifle with Russia right now (which is kind of sad if you really think about it). But, to be honest, with the way jingoist sentiments are growing across that country, I can't help but wonder if the current situation in Ukraine is a window we might later regret not fully opening. It's not a decision-making process that I envy in the slightest but, at the same time, my confidence in the Obama administration to handle this (mainly due to a lack of credible diplomats) is minimal. This would've been a great moment to test Hillary Clinton's mettle as SoS.

Also, I wouldn't be so sure that our Western allies will turn a blind eye to what's going on. Instability in the Ukraine directly effects several fledgling EU member states.
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It could definitely end up being a window that we regret not jumping through. But if we do jump through, I think the immediate repercussions are terrifying, and simply not worth it. Putin knows this. It's not like he doesn't have nukes and an air force. There are potential repercussions both ways. But I believe there are sure, and more frightening, repercussions of taking action to defend Ukraine vs. not.
 
Hawk said:
I'm not saying this to be obstinate, but I view Ukraine as a fairly integral component of contemporary Eastern Europe.
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of course it is

when anyone says "Europe" in this country, they aren't talking about Latvia and the Ukraine etc

and for sure aren't talking about them when it comes to Western powers aka Europe (ie France, Germany, England etc )
 
BedellBrave said:
How old are you? I wonder if you remember living during the Cold War.

Why have we been the world's police?

Why do we engage in geo-politics to begin with?

What are the consequences - economic consequences - of being a 2nd tier player in that game?
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I'm 23. So no memory whatsoever.
I think it's important to maintain our power and protect our country and our allies. Ukraine is not that, and overall has little to do with us.
What are the economic consequences of potential war with Russia?
We will remain a powerful nation for a long while. That's ok, I like that. Doesn't mean we have to police the world.
 
yeezus said:
So what should have been done to avoid this? Russia would not have been deterred. What should be done in response? I don't mind not being world police. I'm in favor, actually. I don't consider that "weak," and I suppose that's where we differ.
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All manner of things - from how we handled the Georgia situation, the green Revolution in Iran, to our role in the Arab Spring, to our poor support for Poland, to who we have involved in foreign diplomacy and on and on we could go. The position we find ourselves in today is the product of an entire foreign policy that has been well, lacking in substance and influence.
 
BedellBrave said:
All manner of things - from how we handled the Georgia situation, the green Revolution in Iran, to our role in the Arab Spring, to our poor support for Poland, to who we have involved in foreign diplomacy and on and on we could go. The position we find ourselves in today is the product of an entire foreign policy that has been well, lacking in substance and influence.
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What "position" are we in? Putin is betting we won't do anything over Ukraine. WHO CARES? If he were to attack Poland, that's a different story. We don't have to assert our dominance over Russia because of a country like Ukraine. It's a mess we don't need to be part of.
 
yeezus said:
I'm 23. So no memory whatsoever.
I think it's important to maintain our power and protect our country and our allies. Ukraine is not that, and overall has little to do with us.
What are the economic consequences of potential war with Russia?
We will remain a powerful nation for a long while. That's ok, I like that. Doesn't mean we have to police the world.
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Thought you had to be young and not remember bomb drills in schools and fall-out shelters under homes and public buildings.

Ukraine is more strategic than you can imagine. Virtually any of the former Soviet satellites are. They are our modern day Viennas (think Ottoman Empire & Europe) whether we like for them to be or not.

We police the world, we are in all manner of places in the world, because we like living the way we live. And if you think 2nd tier status won't effect our economy then I think you are being short-sighted.

Yes, "we've got our own economic house to get in order" yet that task isn't nor will it ever be able to be undertaken apart from geo-politics.

Welcome to the real world.
 
Man. I am so sick of other countries. Where are John Adams and Thomas Jefferson when you need them?

Jefferson to Adams - "It seems the Cannibals of Europe are going to eat one another again. A war between Russia and Turkey is like the battle of the kite and snake; whichever destroys the other, leaves a destroyer less for the world."

Jefferson to Adams - "The life of the feeder is better than that of the fighter; and it is some consolation that the desolation by these maniacs of one part of the earth is the means of improving it in other parts. Let the latter be our office, and let us milk the cow, while the Russian holds her by the horns, and the Turk by the tail."
 
yeezus said:
What "position" are we in? Putin is betting we won't do anything over Ukraine. WHO CARES? If he were to attack Poland, that's a different story. We don't have to assert our dominance over Russia because of a country like Ukraine. It's a mess we don't need to be part of.
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I'm just curious, but why do you think Poland is any different than the Ukraine?
 
Dalyn said:
Man. I am so sick of other countries. Where are John Adams and Thomas Jefferson when you need them?

Jefferson to Adams - "It seems the Cannibals of Europe are going to eat one another again. A war between Russia and Turkey is like the battle of the kite and snake; whichever destroys the other, leaves a destroyer less for the world."

Jefferson to Adams - "The life of the feeder is better than that of the fighter; and it is some consolation that the desolation by these maniacs of one part of the earth is the means of improving it in other parts. Let the latter be our office, and let us milk the cow, while the Russian holds her by the horns, and the Turk by the tail."
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Dalyn, we are no longer 13 small colonies along the Eastern Seaboard….
 
Hawk said:
I'm just curious, but why do you think Poland is any different than the Ukraine?
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They're part of NATO, I believe we have a more of a concern and responsibility to them. Also, there are bigger implications to Putin just romping in to Poland. The situations in Poland and Ukraine are not the same, the Ukraine is more divided.
 
Dalyn said:
Man. I am so sick of other countries. Where are John Adams and Thomas Jefferson when you need them?
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I believe there is more than one way to engage the global community, but isolationism isn't one of them.

The US is speaking loudly but carrying a small stick right now.

Should be the other way around.

I feel like that's a fair compromise (because I do see the benefits of an isolationist approach).
 
Hawk said:
I believe there is more than one way to engage the global community, but isolationism isn't one of them.

The US is speaking loudly but carrying a small stick right now.

Should be the other way around.

I feel like that's a fair compromise (because I do see the benefits of an isolationist approach).
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I think we need a break from policing the globe. Right now, it seems like a family in Germany could get in a backyard brawl with their neighbor and we would want to get involved.
 
Ok then, I'm curious. I want to completely stay out of it. Intervention, to me, is not tolerable.
To those who don't necessarily feel this: What do you propose that we do? What are the consequences, and what is it worth to you?
 
It feels like those who want action, want it because our "American pride" is being threatened and laughed at by Putin. I think we will be just fine in the long run if we don't do anything. Not even "just fine," but better off.
 
The best thing we can do is impose sanctions against Russia. They need Europe more than Europe needs them. We're still the leading economy in the world and hold a ton of power. Trying to physically stop them will not be good.

We could probably hurt Russia pretty good economically.
 
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