DOTW: Underrated Careers in Baseball Recently.

[zitothebrave]

With retirements from Chipper Jones, Derek Jeter and Mo RIvera we here about first ballot HOFers etc. But who do see being say the Bert Blyleven of this group/era.

Some candidates for me.

1. Scott Rolen. He'll likely wind up in the hall by voting because of his defense. But aside from being a great defender he was pretty awesome offensively as well. Sure he wasn't Chipper, Walker, Thomas, etc. But well above average to go with best defensive 3B of the generation.

2. Andruw Jones - Won't make the HOF most likely, but absolutely deserves it. Small list of qualifications, best defensive CF of all time coupled with 400+ HRs and 150+ SB.

3. Bobby Abreu - Should be considered a borderline HOF candidate but isn't. Abreu sucked defensively. But overall, he's a better career than Jeff Kent and vlad Guerrero who may wind up inthe hall.

4. Curt Schilling - 4th best pitcher from 1990 on, finished behind Lee freaking Smith.

 

[sturg33]

Larry Walker. How is he not in the hall?

 

[50PoundHead]

All worthy candidates. I think Walker will suffer some anti-Coors bias. I think the voters will be divided on Andruw, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him get in.

Good discussion.

 

[weso1]

The steroid thing I think hurts guys like Rolen, Druw, Abreu and Walker. Walker is also hurt by playing much of his career in Colorado. Schilling doesn't have the wins, which unfortunately isn't ignored like it should be.

Tim Raines is an obvious one where you have to scratch your head and wonder why he isn't in the hall. I guess cause he lacks the sexy 3000 hits.

 

[DaneHill]

What are the knocks against Andruw, other than his career fell off a cliff at a relatively early age? He was a dominant player for 10 years or so. Used to be that 400 HRs was automatic inclusion into the HOF. Post-steroid era has bumped that up to 500 or so I guess. But considering his defensive superiority along with the offensive numbers, I'd think he'd get a very strong consideration. Not a 1st ballot. But perhaps after 5 or 6 years....

 

[zitothebrave]

All worthy candidates. I think Walker will suffer some anti-Coors bias. I think the voters will be divided on Andruw, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him get in.

Good discussion.

Honestly I'm on the fence with Walker.

But the reason he doesn't get respect is because he didn't hit any of the big marks despite playing in Coors for nearly a decade. Obviously his slash line rocks, but that was largely helped by his Coors play which boosted his average.

There's also a red flag since he posted one of the best seasons of his career at 34 in the tail end of the roid era.

That said I'd put him in, but he's recognized for his abilities (JMO) more than the guys above him.

 

[sturg33]

Honestly I'm on the fence with Walker.

But the reason he doesn't get respect is because he didn't hit any of the big marks despite playing in Coors for nearly a decade. Obviously his slash line rocks, but that was largely helped by his Coors play which boosted his average.

There's also a red flag since he posted one of the best seasons of his career at 34 in the tail end of the roid era.

That said I'd put him in, but he's recognized for his abilities (JMO) more than the guys above him.

His numbers are pretty awesome outside of Coors too

 

[50PoundHead]

The steroid thing I think hurts guys like Rolen, Druw, Abreu and Walker. Walker is also hurt by playing much of his career in Colorado. Schilling doesn't have the wins, which unfortunately isn't ignored like it should be.

Tim Raines is an obvious one where you have to scratch your head and wonder why he isn't in the hall. I guess cause he lacks the sexy 3000 hits.

Agree on the injury front.

I think Raines just comes up a bit shorter than the other guys. Probably some bias from clueless writers who see him come up short on the AVG (and neglect the OBP). Lots of SBs. His problem is he fell off the table more dramatically than Andruw. He was older when the decline hit, but he didn't reach 400 ABs in his last six seasons. Age aside, he gets to 3,000 hits and 900 SBs with 500 AB seasons.

 

[Knucksie]

You guys continue to let your homerism cloud judgment about Andruw Jones and not think like a HOF voter. The argument about defense is flimsy. The only HOFers, who are in at least partly because of defense are:

1. Brooks Robinson
2. Ozzie Smith
3. Bill Mazeroski

All had post-season heroics on WS-winning teams. Brooks Robinson had other credentials. Ozzie Smith's hitting improved as his career went on. Bill Mazeroski was voted in by Veterans Committee, and is remembered mostly for the HR vs. the Yankees.

Voters will notice the SUBSTANTIAL drop-off in production by A. Jones, at an age when he still should've been a viable major leaguer. Nobody's shy about venting about Uggla or BJ Upton, but won't say squat about AJ's last year with the Braves or first year with the Dodgers. Raw suckage.

Dale Murphy is a 2 time MVP and 7 time All Star and was a model citizen and ambassador for the sport (voters tend to notice those types of things). Yeah, he's got a few Gold Gloves too, but not as many as Mr. Gold Club. He didn't make the cut.

 

[thethe]

Bernie Williams

That guy was overshadowed on those great Yankee teams.

 

[zitothebrave]

Bernie Williams

That guy was overshadowed on those great Yankee teams.

Bernie Williams wasn't that great. He got all the accolades he deserved.

Though you mentioning him and my remembering what year he didn't get into the hall led me to a name I forgot who's underrated (and loathed by Braves Fans) Kenny Lofton.

While better than several names in 2013 who stayed on the ballot such as Sosa, Mattingly, Murph and McGriff, he is close to production wise someone like Ed Mart or Raines who were way up the ballots. Hell, he's far superior to Bernie Williams and couldn't get a ballot repeat. I guess being kind of a jerk doesn't pay off in a popularity contest.

 

[50PoundHead]

You guys continue to let your homerism cloud judgment about Andruw Jones and not think like a HOF voter. The argument about defense is flimsy. The only HOFers, who are in at least partly because of defense are:

1. Brooks Robinson
2. Ozzie Smith
3. Bill Mazeroski

All had post-season heroics on WS-winning teams. Brooks Robinson had other credentials. Ozzie Smith's hitting improved as his career went on. Bill Mazeroski was voted in by Veterans Committee, and is remembered mostly for the HR vs. the Yankees.

Voters will notice the SUBSTANTIAL drop-off in production by A. Jones, at an age when he still should've been a viable major leaguer. Nobody's shy about venting about Uggla or BJ Upton, but won't say squat about AJ's last year with the Braves or first year with the Dodgers. Raw suckage.

Dale Murphy is a 2 time MVP and 7 time All Star and was a model citizen and ambassador for the sport (voters tend to notice those types of things). Yeah, he's got a few Gold Gloves too, but not as many as Mr. Gold Club. He didn't make the cut.

And Luis Aparicio.

I think Andruw will someday get in on a backlash vote. Or he could end up being Jack Morris.

 

[Bj1133]

Lance Berkman

 

[NinersSBChamps]

Larry Walker. How is he not in the hall?

He also discovers dead bodies on his property.

 

[Knucksie]

And Luis Aparicio.

Good catch, and still confirms that defense is not weighed heavily. For point of comparison, voters outside of Atlanta are going to say, "well Jim Edmonds won a bunch of Gold Gloves too" if it even enters into the conversation. It's not all about highlight reel catches on SportsCenter.

I think Andruw will someday get in on a backlash vote. Or he could end up being Jack Morris.

Here's what counts against him: a lot of voters still consider that the candidates must be among "the best of the best." They look at awards (esp. major awards, like MVP & Cy Young). If the Braves had won in '96, Andruw Jones would've been Series MVP. With it having been against the Yankees, that would've swayed some in his favor. Without that, they'll evaluate him as somebody, who was behind a lot of great power hitters during that period. Unfortunately, it was the 'roids era, so Bonds, McGuire and Sosa will never get inducted. Plus, AJ's career batting average will not be regarded favorably.

Jack Morris was an important part of 3 different WS-winning teams and was among leaders in certain pitching categories in the AL during the 80's. He pitched a no-hitter. Despite that only being one game, this always merits mention and is always included in bios for inductees. So, what counted against him (at least for certain voters)? They'd say that he fell short of the 300 win threshold and career ERA was high.

 

[The Tariff King]

You guys continue to let your homerism cloud judgment about Andruw Jones and not think like a HOF voter. The argument about defense is flimsy. The only HOFers, who are in at least partly because of defense are:

1. Brooks Robinson
2. Ozzie Smith
3. Bill Mazeroski

All had post-season heroics on WS-winning teams. Brooks Robinson had other credentials. Ozzie Smith's hitting improved as his career went on. Bill Mazeroski was voted in by Veterans Committee, and is remembered mostly for the HR vs. the Yankees.

Voters will notice the SUBSTANTIAL drop-off in production by A. Jones, at an age when he still should've been a viable major leaguer. Nobody's shy about venting about Uggla or BJ Upton, but won't say squat about AJ's last year with the Braves or first year with the Dodgers. Raw suckage.

Dale Murphy is a 2 time MVP and 7 time All Star and was a model citizen and ambassador for the sport (voters tend to notice those types of things). Yeah, he's got a few Gold Gloves too, but not as many as Mr. Gold Club. He didn't make the cut.

CF is probably the most demanding position to play besides Catcher. How many center fielders lasted in their 30's playing CF? Torii Hunter moved to LF/RF rather quickly after being one of the game's best CF.

Andruw is arguably the best defensive CF, and a lot of writers had the opportunity to see it, and a lot of the country did too since he was on TBS all the time. I think he has enough offense to go a long with his elite defense to get in in a few years. Maybe not first ballot but he'll get in there sure enough. Wasn't he also the youngest to homer in a world series also?

 

[Knucksie]

CF is probably the most demanding position to play besides Catcher. How many center fielders lasted in their 30's playing CF? Torii Hunter moved to LF/RF rather quickly after being one of the game's best CF.

Andruw is arguably the best defensive CF, and a lot of writers had the opportunity to see it, and a lot of the country did too since he was on TBS all the time. I think he has enough offense to go a long with his elite defense to get in in a few years. Maybe not first ballot but he'll get in there sure enough. Wasn't he also the youngest to homer in a world series also?

Well, again, we've named only 4 inductees who were famous for defense (Robinson, Smith, Mazerski & Aparacio). They had to have other factors in their favors though. In Ozzie Smith's case, he probably would've gotten in even without improving his hitting. He was extremely popular with media and fans, "a capture the imagination" type of player.

Yes, he was the youngest to homer in WS with 2, in fact. As mentioned, he would've won Series MVP, if not for that collective meltdown.

Google "andruw jones hall of fame" to see perceptions. Granted, these are voters writing this material, but there are compelling arguments.

Here's one:
http://unclemikesmusings.blogspot.com/2012/07/is-andruw-jones-hall-of-famer.html

What this blog presents against the possibility is low lifetime BA, high strikeout total and very low career hits total (< 2,000). Baserunning was solid at start of career, then fell off. In another blog, somebody presents dWAR. Seriously, what HOF voter relies on that stat? Yeah, they're all going to acknowledge great years of outstanding defense, but there aren't enough other credentials to carry him.

300 wins used to be a guaranteed spot (it's back to that status now). Don Sutton had to wait a few years. Voters made him sweat because he was never staff ace, and he pitched on a lot of great Dodgers teams. Still, nothing was going to prevent a 300 game winner. Phil Niekro had to sweat it out, because of career loss total. Obviously, he pitched on a lot of crappy Braves teams.

Just weighing factors, the average HOF voter is going to see that AJ never won any major awards and wasn't a league leader in any important offensive category. He wasn't near sure-fire threshold numbers in hits or HR's. (Look at what's happening with Biggio.)

Some voters return empty ballots and will never vote for a first ballot candidate. With those types of voters, it's impossible to see much sympathy for somebody who hit under .260 lifetime.

 

[Julio3000]

Andruw should get in. He won't, but he should. Schilling, dick that he is, should get in, too. Edgar Martinez? How 'bout it. y'all?

 

[zitothebrave]

Andruw Jones was far and away a better hitter than Ozzie, Mazeroski, and Aparicio.

ALos a better hitter than Brooks (though pretty close though similar ages)

As far as awards Druw was a 10 time Gold Glove, 5 time All-Star and should have won the MVP in 05. I was hoping he'd stick around in the majors a few years to get to 500 homers to solidify his case. Would have probably taken 4 more years to get there. Maybe 5.

 

[Tapate50]

I made a post about this about a year back and cannot remember who it was. I'll have to search the archives....