Hillary has been accused, Putin has done it.
Trump and Putin
- Thread starter zitothebrave
- Start date
Hillary has been accused, Putin has done it.
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
So bizarre that sturg rips into Venezuela so much yet has an appreciation for Putin. Wonder if he felt those speeches Chavez gave railing against America back in the day were honest and truthful.
Russia is a far, far different sociopolitical beast. You can't transpose Western principles of governance onto the Former Soviet Union and it's hodgepodge of territories and radical separatist groups and general abundance of crazy history and peoples and connections. That's absurd.
Putin isn't perfect. A lot of his domestic policies are shambolic and there's no disputing the fact that his record of oppressing enemies of the state and his own political party is bloodcurdling.
But I have a simple question: is Russia better today than she was in 1999 when Putin took the reigns from Yeltsin?
jpx7
Very Flirtatious, but Doubts What Love Is.
On the one hand, I do think the depths of Putin's villainy are vastly overstated Stateside; on the other hand, I do think he's a bad dude, repressive to his countrymen and regressive for the world. Either way, I'll say this: the US has buddied up to far worse in the name of furthering her interests, so I find a lot of the anti-Putin/anti-Russian noise belching out of the establishment to be very transparently strategic (as opposed to being born out of real moral outrage or philosophical compunction).
Further, I do have to agree with [MENTION=266]Hawk[/MENTION] that—while nobody in the vaguely-united west or the farther easts has really done a good job dealing with the near east—it does seem that Russia has better positioned itself than the US to have credibility in that region, at least amongst any of the many factions outside of the US's backpocket (ie Israel and the Saudi oligarchs). However, I suspect he'll disagree with my feeling that President Obama's Iran deal was a step in the right direction on this front.
Further, I do have to agree with [MENTION=266]Hawk[/MENTION] that—while nobody in the vaguely-united west or the farther easts has really done a good job dealing with the near east—it does seem that Russia has better positioned itself than the US to have credibility in that region, at least amongst any of the many factions outside of the US's backpocket (ie Israel and the Saudi oligarchs). However, I suspect he'll disagree with my feeling that President Obama's Iran deal was a step in the right direction on this front.
So you think Putin had Litvenenko poisoned? And pulled the trigger on Nemtsov?
Or is it possible that rabid, loyal factions of the FSB/GRU/SVR did it to demonstrate their loyalty to Putin in what is, by all accounts, routine behavior by Russian intelligence groups jockeying for favorable seats in the court?
Russia is different, man. Politics are bloodsport. But to lay that all at Putin's feet is lazy.
jpx7
Very Flirtatious, but Doubts What Love Is.
But obdurately transposing Western principles of governance and culture onto distinctly alterior societies and locales is sort of our whole thing ...
jpx7
Very Flirtatious, but Doubts What Love Is.
Nevertheless, he's certainly not discouraging any of that, to any degree; so as Glorious One True Leader he certainly deserves, as a terrific lion of a man, a lion's-share of the blame for not even trying to curb such proclivities (as well as likely encouraging them, at least implicitly).
sturg33
I
I rip into Venezuela for being a full blown socialist... and your hero saying we should be more like them
I'm not sure where I said I have an "appreciation for Putin." More or less just saying I thin our government has made him a enemy that he may not necessarily be.
Like I said earlier, I could be wrong.
Quite right - but it has much more to do with a deep-seeded mistrust of Iran than it does with the overall diplomatic approach.
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
I'm not sure what we're arguing. Putin's efficacy? I'm not going to argue that. Russia's place in the world? I don't think I see it that much differently than you do. Our prospects for strategic cooperation? I don't think I see it that differently, either. In fact, I also think that the idea of his geopolitical menace vis a vis the US is certainly dumbed down and oversimplified, if not overblown. He's not the boogeyman. But he is a bad man with a pretty chilling track record.
I was responding solely to what I interpreted as your downplaying—or outright dismissal—of what you rightly called his bloodcurdling record wrt enemies and dissidents.
Putin isn't perfect. Indeed. That's an interesting formulation. I'm sure a lot of Chechens, Ukrainians, dissidents, journalists, and political opponents would agree.
I'd be curious to know how your satisfaction with Putin's ends justifying the means in Russia and your assertion that we cannot transpose Western principles of governance onto the former Soviet Union squares with your notable enthusiasm for our most recent adventures in Mesopotamia.
I don't mean for my comments to be construed as a defense of Putin, per se. I'm just not as galled by Putinism, or the way that Russia conducts her business, as some moderates and most people on the left are, finding that position to be rather hypocritical. Americans love claiming moral high ground - it's our thing - but we're citizens of a country that has slaughtered 20 million people since the end of WWII in conflicts all around the world. I don't think it would be hard for me to find a person on this forum who would defend each and every instance of American military intervention. You'll find similar defenses emanating from Russia with respect to Chechnya, Georgia, the Ukraine, etc.
jpx7
Very Flirtatious, but Doubts What Love Is.
I think most of the true left are as galled by Putin's foreign engagements as they are by the US's relatively dastardly record of foreign intervention of the past sixty years, which is another way of saying they reject the false moral dichotomy of the US as worldwide white knight and Russia as some sort of lidless-eyed, hydra-headed necromancer.
Now, I do ultimately think Putin (and "Putinism") is worse for the world than any of the US' past six neoliberal Presidents and their (on the whole most similar) globalist policies, but the gap is a lot narrower than most would be comfortable admitting.
50PoundHead
Hessmania Forever
I'm not galled by Putin, but I do sometimes have a reflexive realist reaction in foreign affairs. He is who he is. Russia's political environment may as well be on another planet when compared the what exists in the U.S. and as someone who respects relativism, I don't want to place heavy moral judgments on their system. I don't think it has worked particularly well (horribly under the Tsars, worse under the communists, marginally better (but still woeful) under the current system), but there are a variety of reasons for that. Demonizing Putin won't solve any problem, but I do think the guy is a thug and kleptocrat who is going to try to asset influence (pretty much unilaterally) if and when he can. It's high-stakes mischief making.
57Brave
Well-known member
"you should research" ????
If you have a point to make, make it
otherwise , just one more Clinton "whisper campaign"
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
Again, I don't really disagree with this at all. In fact, Chechnya 2.0 basically happened as a cynical echo of Dubya's War or Terror (TM). I'm not contrasting Russia's expansionism and aggression in their sphere of influence with America's actions in the ME and Latin America in the last few decades. But, yeah, this, too:
Now, I do ultimately think Putin (and "Putinism") is worse for the world than any of the US' past six neoliberal Presidents and their (on the whole most similar) globalist policies, but the gap is a lot narrower than most would be comfortable admitting.
50PoundHead
Hessmania Forever
Oklahomahawk
Boras' Client
Hey, I'm pretty sure that's just a stock photo from all the funerals they had during the movie The Departed!!!
