Really Being Pro-Life

[BedellBrave]

Westminster Larger Catechism Q. 134. Which is the sixth commandment?

A. The sixth commandment is, Thou shalt not kill.


WLC Q. 135. What are the duties required in the sixth commandment?

A. The duties required in the sixth commandment are, all careful studies, and lawful endeavors, to preserve the life of ourselves and others by resisting all thoughts and purposes, subduing all passions, and avoiding all occasions, temptations, and practices, which tend to the unjust taking away the life of any; by just defense thereof against violence, patient bearing of the hand of God, quietness of mind, cheerfulness of spirit; a sober use of meat, drink, physic, sleep, labor, and recreations; by charitable thoughts, love, compassion, meekness, gentleness, kindness; peaceable, mild and courteous speeches and behavior; forbearance, readiness to be reconciled, patient bearing and forgiving of injuries, and requiting good for evil; comforting and succoring the distressed, and protecting and defending the innocent.


WLC Q. 136. What are the sins forbidden in the sixth commandment?

A. The sins forbidden in the sixth commandment are, all taking away the life of ourselves, or of others, except in case of public justice, lawful war, or necessary defense; the neglecting or withdrawing the lawful and necessary means of preservation of life; sinful anger, hatred, envy, desire of revenge; all excessive passions, distracting cares; immoderate use of meat, drink, labor, and recreations; provoking words, oppression, quarreling, striking, wounding, and whatsoever else tends to the destruction of the life of any.

[BedellBrave]

First, this is convicting.

Second, I wish pro-lifers were more pro-life.

Third, some "Pro-lifers" most certainly aren't.

[Jaw]

First, this is convicting.

Second, I wish pro-lifers were more pro-life.

Third, some "Pro-lifers" most certainly aren't.

Can you elaborate on that?

[BedellBrave]

Can you elaborate on that?

Jaw, I'd just refer back to all the ways the Westminster Larger Catechism explicates the 6th Commandment. What does it really mean to be obey the commandment in our thoughts, words, and actions? What are sins of commission and omission that violate it? When we commit them we aren't being Pro-life.

Being pro-life isn't less than opposing abortion, but it should certainly be more than that.

The sort of promotion of "Pro-life" issues while hating one's political enemies and provoking unnecessary quarrels that POTUS is given to seems sadly too prevalent to me now within my circles and imho, it helps little to persuade the hearts of others to the cause...

[Jaw]

Jaw, I'd just refer back to all the ways the Westminster Larger Catechism explicates the 6th Commandment. What does it really mean to be obey the commandment in our thoughts, words, and actions? What are sins of commission and omission that violate it? When we commit them we aren't being Pro-life.

Being pro-life isn't less than opposing abortion, but it should certainly be more than that.

The sort of promotion of "Pro-life" issues while hating one's political enemies and provoking unnecessary quarrels that POTUS is given to seems sadly too prevalent to me now within my circles and imho, it helps little to persuade the hearts of others to the cause...

I guess I was hoping for more in the way of specific issues and how you would apply the Catechism to them, but I didn't say that and I recognize how tedious it can be to try form a representative list. As an unsubtle example, I oppose both abortion and the death penalty. While I consider my stance on both issues to be "Pro Life," I vote for candidates who support the death penalty on a regular basis. I will never cast another vote for a person who I consider to be "Pro Choice." That just comes from an internal sense of which issue is most unjust.

I know other people of faith that routinely vote for Pro Choice candidates while using the excuse that the same candidate will do more to provide for those in need. That is a belief that has some basis in the Catechism on the 6th, but it's not one I would care to explain to my maker one fine day. The problem isn't really with the issues, I think anyone looking at them with clear eyes and good faith can see the appropriate stance on almost every issue. My frustration comes from the gray area of having to prioritize which of the correct stances is most important to each of us, and how each of us can all too easily use that gray area to justify the unjust.

[BedellBrave]

I guess I was hoping for more in the way of specific issues and how you would apply the Catechism to them, but I didn't say that and I recognize how tedious it can be to try form a representative list. As an unsubtle example, I oppose both abortion and the death penalty. While I consider my stance on both issues to be "Pro Life," I vote for candidates who support the death penalty on a regular basis. I will never cast another vote for a person who I consider to be "Pro Choice." That just comes from an internal sense of which issue is most unjust.

I know other people of faith that routinely vote for Pro Choice candidates while using the excuse that the same candidate will do more to provide for those in need. That is a belief that has some basis in the Catechism on the 6th, but it's not one I would care to explain to my maker one fine day. The problem isn't really with the issues, I think anyone looking at them with clear eyes and good faith can see the appropriate stance on almost every issue. My frustration comes from the gray area of having to prioritize which of the correct stances is most important to each of us, and how each of us can all too easily use that gray area to justify the unjust.

For instance, POTUS' recent exchange with Sen. Gillibrand, where his words (as usual) were "provoking words, ...., quarreling, striking, wounding, and whatsoever else tends to the destruction of the life of any."

[thethe]

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...mpression=true

Sorry to even post this disgusting act in this thread but it's an example of just how little people value life

[cajunrevenge]

Despite being Libertarian I am pro-life. In my view if it has a heart beat it's alive. It doesn't have to be about religion. If it's women's body their choice then it should also be their body their problem. If women have the right to.cjoose after conception then men should to.

[nsacpi]

Despite being Libertarian I am pro-life. In my view if it has a heart beat it's alive. It doesn't have to be about religion. If it's women's body their choice then it should also be their body their problem. If women have the right to.cjoose after conception then men should to.

I'm also in the libertarian non-religious pro-life camp. I acknowledge there is a conflict between the rights of the fetus and the rights of a woman to control her body. But I favor resolving that conflict in favor of the fetus fairly early after conception. And I don't speak up much about this debate because I do realize that a man cannot fully look at this issue from a woman's perspective. I do think that as a moral proposition the fetus has compelling rights fairly early on.

[cajunrevenge]

I'm also in the libertarian non-religious pro-life camp. I acknowledge there is a conflict between the rights of the fetus and the rights of a woman to control her body. But I favor resolving that conflict in favor of the fetus fairly early after conception. And I don't speak up much about this debate because I do realize that a man cannot fully look at this issue from a woman's perspective. I do think that as a moral proposition the fetus has compelling rights fairly early on.

I just kind of accepted that I won't win the fight on abortion so whatever, people can murder babies all day long. As long as it's not mine I guess it's not my problem. I don't associate with women who have had abortions which really pissed some people off but I also don't associate with men who dont support their kids. Not that I ask this info but if they tell me.

[jpx7]

I'm also in the libertarian non-religious pro-life camp. I acknowledge there is a conflict between the rights of the fetus and the rights of a woman to control her body. But I favor resolving that conflict in favor of the fetus fairly early after conception. And I don't speak up much about this debate because I do realize that a man cannot fully look at this issue from a woman's perspective. I do think that as a moral proposition the fetus has compelling rights fairly early on.

I favor resolving the conflict in favor of the rights and safety of adult women, but—as I've mentioned to Bedell before—I don't think preserving the legal status of abortion precludes us from attempting to reduce the number of abortions to as close to zero as possible. There are a number of methods that have been established as promoting reduced numbers of abortions in populations even when there is still both legal and effective access to abortion. That, I think, is a better starting point than electing congresspeople whose other positions are suspect simply because they promise to "repeal" Roe v Wade (or w/e).

[57Brave]

I favor resolving the conflict in favor of the rights and safety of adult women, but—as I've mentioned to Bedell before—I don't think preserving the legal status of abortion precludes us from attempting to reduce the number of abortions to as close to zero as possible. There are a number of methods that have been established as promoting reduced numbers of abortions in populations even when there is still both legal and effective access to abortion. That, I think, is a better starting point than electing congresspeople whose other positions are suspect simply because they promise to "repeal" Roe v Wade (or w/e).

this

[Oklahomahawk]

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...mpression=true

Sorry to even post this disgusting act in this thread but it's an example of just how little people value life

I totally agree. So who are, DV Biologics LLC and sister company DaVinci Biosciences LLC, both based in Yorba Linda? Who owns them? Who makes their decisions? Who profits from this terrible "line of business"?

[Julio3000]

I agree with jpx here. And I think I've probably travelled a similar arc in my consideration of the issue.

I've voted for anti-abortion politicians on occasions when I think the opposing candidate is manifestly unqualified. I'd like to think that, in some small way, there's value in that. Hell, one time I voted in a primary for a candidate whom, years before, I'd had an adversarial exchange with on the subject of abortion during a student forum. I know Evangelical Christians (some of them are my family) with whom I agree on issues of social and economic justice but disagree with about abortion access. I'd rather try to build bridges there than walls.

I see a world which accepts the aforementioned binary as one that necessitates a vote for any scoundrel or grifter who checks the "correct" box on that issue, and that just doesn't seem like a healthy place for civil society.

[chop2chip]

I do find myself leaning left on many social issues (even some fiscal ones as well), but the abortion issue is one I cannot morally justify for myself. Don’t get me wrong, I fully understand if others view the issue differently.

With that said, I really appreciate what jpx said. The goal should be to bring the abortion number to zero. Shockingly, this is somehow lost in the debate. You would think that this goal would serve as suitable enough middle ground that both sides could reach some sort of consensus.

[The Chosen One]

PBirth Control and Safe Sex aren’t accepted by a lot of those on that side of the debate. It’s abstinence or bust.

So that doesn’t help either.

[Carp]

It's certainly a catch-22. I morally cannot and will not support abortion. But I fully realize that if you remove abortion clinics it will not stop abortions. The same way with gun control or prohibition, people who want to get them will find a way to get them, normally in a very unsafe manner. Might as well have a safe place for them to go.