Never said he wasn't a "good" player...I just don't think he is worth what people think he is worth. At this point in his career, he is an average hitter and a great defensive player. That is not worth 100+ million a year...in any universe. Unfortunately, there are people with to much money for their own good that will pay a slightly above average (at this point) player, superstar money. It's sickening. Yes, that is my opinion, maybe your's is the one that's wrong? Nah, zito is never wrong. Just ask him.
BedellBrave (05-24-2015), ChapelHillMatt (05-25-2015), NinersSBChamps (05-23-2015)
Braves1976 (05-23-2015), jpx7 (05-23-2015)
Were Brooks Robinson or Ozzie Smith superstars? They were average or worse offensive players when looking at their whole careers but seemed to do ok since they got put into the HOF, for their defense.
I don't know where this idea came from that defense doesn't matter or you can't be an elite player if you have elite defense. I just think it's funny that advanced stats support guys like Smith and Robinson for the hall of fame but for current players they just must not add up. There is a reason that so many people believe in these stats. It's because it makes sense.
Braves1976 (05-23-2015)
Heyward (05-23-2015)
Sure. Ozzie did it for like 2 decades and is among the career leaders in defensive war. But the point stands that crap hitters with elite defense have been paid a lot of money. It's not like this is a new thing.
I think what some people are upset about is the amount of money Heyward will likely get. But in reality it's not that much when comapred to the state of baseball right now. Replacement level to league average players are getting paid 12 million a year.
jpx7 (05-24-2015)
That's the part people aren't grasping. Any good player we go after is gonna cost us a chunk of change. We are off an offseason that saw Jed Lawrie a 30 year old who hasn't done much of anything get a 3/23 contract. Billy Butler who's extremely one dimensional signed for 3/30. Jason who's young and still really good isn't signing for a super bargain.
Stockholm, more densely populated than NYC - sturg
jpx7 (05-24-2015)
We heard for so long that Heyward walked on water and deserved whatever he and his agent wanted at whatever length they deemed suitable.
Braves1976 (05-23-2015)
I'd pay Simmons 20 million a year. Right now anyway.
jpx7 (05-24-2015)
Sure. If he's a league average bat and saving 25-30 runs per season with his glove then he will most certainly be worth that once his contract is up. Will the Braves pay that? Doubtful since the Braves are cheap. But he would be worth that and would get it once he's on the market.
jpx7 (05-24-2015)
So you are a better judge as to what a player is worth? Worth is determined by the market and and right now the going price is like 6 million per WAR. You don't have to believe in that stat. It doesn't matter. But that is what MLB front offices believe in for the most part. They may have better formulas for offense and defense then is what readily available but I guarantee you they all use some sort of baseline of each players WAR. History has shown that elite defenders get paid. It's also shown that elite defenders have been rewarded with baseballs highest honor. Some here may not value that but it's real.
I don't necessarily believe that market rate = player worth. This is relying on the economic principle that wage = marginal revenue product (or the value that player contributes). It's fine and dandy, but has never been proven to be actually quantifiable. $/WAR is a good baseline to attempt to do that, but the mere fact that two versions of WAR exist for the general public (and likely 30 different version for each team) shows how incredibly difficult that process is. This isn't even accounting for the fact that different players provide different values to different markets (for example, Russell Martin is more valuable to Toronto than any other team because he's Canadian and Canadians are weirdly loyal to other Canadians).
The reality is that the "winner's curse" paradox essentially guarantees that all free agents are overpaid since typically only the team that signs that player values them that much. If I was a betting man, I would bet that the average free agent contract is going to be an overpay for that exact reason, meaning there's a really good chance Heyward gets paid a lot more than his actual worth.
Last edited by jpx7; 05-24-2015 at 01:45 AM.
"For all his tattooings he was on the whole a clean, comely looking cannibal."
Hawk (05-24-2015), holden (05-24-2015), sturg33 (05-24-2015), zitothebrave (05-24-2015)