Economics Thread

[thethe]

https://reason.com/2025/03/14/howard-lutnick-doesnt-get-to-decide-what-you-buy/

"We don't want to buy 60 percent of our aluminum from Canada," Lutnick explained during an interview with Fox News on Thursday. "We want to bring [aluminum production] to America."

Lutnick's phrasing there is pretty telling. There is no "royal we" in the marketplace—that Canadian aluminum is not being bought by the federal government, but by private American businesses, which are making deals with private companies on the other side of the border.

There is, indeed, no reason to think about those transactions in a nationalist way at all. The economy is not a World Cup match. When Canadian companies exchange their aluminum for American companies' money, both sides win.

About 60 percent of the aluminum used by American companies to make all manner of products comes from Canada. That should be none of Lutnick's business. In fact, no one should have to give a flying **** what the commerce secretary—a position that really shouldn't even exist—thinks about where American businesses source their aluminum (or any other product). What happened to the days when Republicans believed businesses should be free from interference from Washington?

What Lutnick is talking about is central planning, plain and simple. It's also just silly. How much of America's aluminum supply should come from Canada if not 60 percent? Is 50 percent the right amount? Is it 17.54 percent? Lutnick doesn't know—because no one does—because that's a question without an answer.


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^ this

https://www.msci.org/canada-adds-penalties-on-steel-aluminum-and-evs-from-china/

As legal experts at the Canadian firm MacMillan, LLP explained, this shift aligns the Canadian government with the U.S. government, which recently imposed similar 100 percent duties on Chinese EVs and, for the last several years, has imposed penalties on aluminum and steel products from China.

If only you guys understood that China dumps their products all over the world and then it gets redirected elsewhere

But good on Canada for starting to realize this and hopefully we get a normalization on contracts.

All your free trade nonsense is just a tacit approval of the CCP slave labor factory.

 

[thethe]

You guys still don't get what the whole point of the threatened Tariffs are on Canada/Mexico and its sad - One day you'll get it.

 

[mqt]

You guys still don't get what the whole point of the threatened Tariffs are on Canada/Mexico and its sad - One day you'll get it.

It’d help if the people implementing them seemed to know what it was and didn’t change it depending on the most recent development.

 

[thethe]

It’d help if the people implementing them seemed to know what it was and didn’t change it depending on the most recent development.

You're just listening to the wrong things.

Signal vs noise

But the objectives have been clear from day 1

 

[mqt]

You're just listening to the wrong things.

Signal vs noise

But the objectives have been clear from day 1

I’m listening to the President and his Administration. Silly me for thinking they were the right source.

 

[thethe]

I’m listening to the President and his Administration. Silly me for thinking they were the right source.

Signal vs Noise

 

[thethe]

But you guys didn't even know that China dumps their products in Canada. YOu thought it was all Canadian business that miraculously was produced at cheaper rates.

Large portion of the trade with Canada/Mexico is just a third party stopgap to direct trade with China.

Uninformed idealogues.

 

[mqt]

But you guys didn't even know that China dumps their products in Canada. YOu thought it was all Canadian business that miraculously was produced at cheaper rates.

Large portion of the trade with Canada/Mexico is just a third party stopgap to direct trade with China.

Uninformed idealogues.

No, I just don’t care where my aluminum comes from so long as it works and costs me less. Maybe we should buy it directly from China and cut out the middle man.

 

[thethe]

No, I just don’t care where my aluminum comes from so long as it works and costs me less. Maybe we should buy it directly from China and cut out the middle man.

Tacit approval of slave labor - Gotcha!

 

[mqt]

Tacit approval of slave labor - Gotcha!

Continuing trade with China but with tariffs is just tacit approval of the same, but assigning an arbitrary revenue source for the federal coffers for doing so at the expense of American consumers.

 

[thethe]

Continuing trade with China but with tariffs is just tacit approval of the same, but assigning an arbitrary revenue source for the federal coffers for doing so at the expense of American consumers.

No - with Tariffs you are moving trade away from China and not rewarding them from slave labor.

Sitting by and 'cut out the middle man and trade with China directly' is a strong approval of their slave labor.

 

[sturg33]

No - with Tariffs you are moving trade away from China and not rewarding them from slave labor.

Sitting by and 'cut out the middle man and trade with China directly' is a strong approval of their slave labor.

Would you support a military invasion with China to liberate the slaves?

 

[thethe]

Would you support a military invasion with China to liberate the slaves?

Of course not becuase then WW3 breaks out and tens of millions (maybe hudnreds would die) which is worse than slave labor.

This is an easy question.

But economic warfare can be implemented to weaken the CCP and encourage domestic revolution.

While my reason for not wanting to invade them is the small inconvenience of maybe hundreds of millions of deaths yours and most of the others in here are discouraged by the inconvenience of slightly increased costs.

WE ARE NOT THE SAME>

 

[sturg33]

Of course not becuase then WW3 breaks out and tens of millions (maybe hudnreds would die) which is worse than slave labor.

This is an easy question.

But economic warfare can be implemented to weaken the CCP and encourage domestic revolution.

While my reason for not wanting to invade them is the small inconvenience of maybe hundreds of millions of deaths yours and most of the others in here are discouraged by the inconvenience of slightly increased costs.

WE ARE NOT THE SAME>

Well everyone has a line they aren't willing to cross.

We both agree not to have a militrlary invasion.

An alternative would be to shut off all trade completely... but the would invoke so much economic damage to the US that it would catastrophic for all of us.

So I presume we both don't want to do that either

So all you and I are doing is debating how much pain is worth invoking on the US to not support child slavery

 

[thethe]

And we greatly differ on how much 'pain' is actually caused by Tariffs especially considered the benefits long term to hte country.

 

[mqt]

Well everyone has a line they aren't willing to cross.

We both agree not to have a militrlary invasion.

An alternative would be to shut off all trade completely... but the would invoke so much economic damage to the US that it would catastrophic for all of us.

So I presume we both don't want to do that either

So all you and I are doing is debating how much pain is worth invoking on the US to not support child slavery

This is oddly where I find myself on China, and I’m pretty staunchly anti-worker abuse. If we stop buying Chinese goods, is the expectation that China will be better to its workers? Or will they just double down to find ways around the decreased revenue? The issue I see with the global economy is that free trade both rewards and diminishes human suffering. So the same actions that reinforce the system are the ones that can eventually pull that country out of that system. It doesn’t excuse the abuses of the Chinese government, but our options to do that are often worse than the status quo.

 

[mqt]

No - with Tariffs you are moving trade away from China and not rewarding them from slave labor.

Sitting by and 'cut out the middle man and trade with China directly' is a strong approval of their slave labor.

I see we’re only pragmatic when it suits you. Everybody roughly understands the financial benefits of underpaid labor on costs of goods sold. That’s ultimately why we have the system we have. People want to pretend to care about Chinese workers but when push comes to shove we’ll find some way to exploit it. All you’re doing right now with tariffs is creating a costly shell game where companies just need to find out which countries are not on our tariff list and create middle men there.

 

[thethe]

I see we’re only pragmatic when it suits you. Everybody roughly understands the financial benefits of underpaid labor on costs of goods sold. That’s ultimately why we have the system we have. People want to pretend to care about Chinese workers but when push comes to shove we’ll find some way to exploit it. All you’re doing right now with tariffs is creating a costly shell game where companies just need to find out which countries are not on our tariff list and create middle men there.

Which ends up resulting in less money on the CCPs coffers which drastically impacts their future viability.

 

[mqt]

Which ends up resulting in less money on the CCPs coffers which drastically impacts their future viability.

Which is even worse for the workers in China. I might hold some serious objections to the way China governs its people, it has certainly gotten better for Chinese people as they increased their global manufacturing. Now to be clear, that’s not an argument in favor of American trade policy, but please spare me the “Chinese wage slaves” defense when discussing this issue when it’s the only time you seem to care about it.

 

[thethe]

Which is even worse for the workers in China. I might hold some serious objections to the way China governs its people, it has certainly gotten better for Chinese people as they increased their global manufacturing. Now to be clear, that’s not an argument in favor of American trade policy, but please spare me the “Chinese wage slaves” defense when discussing this issue when it’s the only time you seem to care about it.

Yes my priority is the American citizen and the slave labor rates the ccp inposes directly impacts the American middle class. I don’t care about other counties like I do America. Guilty.